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Explorer's Edition - Binding - Just our bad luck?
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phloog
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Joined: 24 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:59 pm    Post subject: Explorer's Edition - Binding - Just our bad luck? Reply with quote

Did a search for 'binding' and 'quality' and came up with nil, so I'm thinking maybe we're just the unluckiest gaming group in the world.

I bought two copies of the Explorer's edition, and before they were even read once through they began falling apart. We contacted the company that sells the books, were told that they'd send out new copies, which they did and got all kinds of praise from me.

Now the REPLACEMENT books are also falling apart. I've told the publishing house that we'd rather not get sent new copies if they're all going to fall apart anyway. They've said that they only experienced a small percentage of this happening, but it HAS happened.

Do you know if it's legal for me to print out MULTIPLE copies of the pdf version that I bought, so long as I only print one copy PER copy of the physical book that I also bought?

My opinion on this is pretty simple -- I love the idea of a $10 gaming book, but not like this - - charge me $20 and give me a book that holds its pages.
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kreider204
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Explorer's Edition - Binding - Just our bad luck? Reply with quote

phloog wrote:
Did a search for 'binding' and 'quality' and came up with nil, so I'm thinking maybe we're just the unluckiest gaming group in the world.

I bought two copies of the Explorer's edition, and before they were even read once through they began falling apart. We contacted the company that sells the books, were told that they'd send out new copies, which they did and got all kinds of praise from me.

Now the REPLACEMENT books are also falling apart. I've told the publishing house that we'd rather not get sent new copies if they're all going to fall apart anyway. They've said that they only experienced a small percentage of this happening, but it HAS happened.

Do you know if it's legal for me to print out MULTIPLE copies of the pdf version that I bought, so long as I only print one copy PER copy of the physical book that I also bought?

My opinion on this is pretty simple -- I love the idea of a $10 gaming book, but not like this - - charge me $20 and give me a book that holds its pages.


This seems to happen to quite a few of is. I'm not sure that I buy that it's only a small percentage.

What many of us have done is take the book down to the local Office Max (or whatever) and spent about $4 getting the book coilbound. I love it - it's so much easier to read, it lies flat on the table, etc. In fact, I like it so much, I've started doing it to most of my soft cover gaming books.

I believe that Pinnacle and TAG both grant blanket permission to print for personal use, and one copy per book, even if it's the same book, certainly seems to fall under that. I'll let Clint say for sure, though.

Frankly, I'm not sure you really even need permission - I'm pretty sure this falls under "Fair Use" clauses of most copyright laws. But it never hurts to be careful and ask. Smile
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phloog
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm one of those people completely out of synch (maybe because I'm REALLY old) with the whole "Information Wants to Be Free" culture/philosophy, so I'm REALLY loathe to do anything that might even be PERCEIVED as violating the rights of an artist to make money from their work.

I do a lot of graphics/animation, and back when I was only making about 30k/year, I spent about a third of my pay on software, knowing full well that if I wanted to, I could have had all of it for nothing.

I'll abide by what Pinnacle says...the publisher suggested the coil binding at OfficeMax - - do they drill or whatever the book for you and do the whole shebang? Do they remove the original gluey bits on the spine? It seems like they don't hold enough to keep the pages in, but they'll hold enough to make it rough going removing it all.
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jpk
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Joined: 03 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I recall correctly, the last print run of Savage World: Explorer's Edition was 10,000 books. I believe we're at about 200 bad bindings at this point, about 2%.

They seem to clump, and we've never pinned down if the "last straw" for a book was a production timing issue, the location in the shipping container, or possibly even US warehousing conditions. If it weren't a small percentage, we could've found a pattern.

The spiral bindings I've seen have turned out very nicely. They'll probably slice off the binding edge with a guillotine cutter, which will remove the glue and turn your 6.5" book into a 6.45" book or so, then drill or punch the little holes, then put in the coil. There's one page, a sideways weapons chart whose page number I don't recall, that will have a little information punched through, but you'll be able to reference your PDF and jot it down if you need it.

If you're going to coil bind anything, I highly suggest you do it with the book itself, not printed PDF pages. They'll be much more durable. If legibility is at all an issue, you might consider printing the PDF at a larger page size and having that bound, but otherwise I'd stick to the heavier coated paper used in the printed book.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, we've made changes to address the most likely causes, and we've had absolutely no reports to date of any failed Explorer's Editions of Necessary Evil or Fantasy Companion.
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Pariah74
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21815

They'll replace it.

Mine had the same problem. I figured if they would send me a new one I'd give the one falling apart to one of my fellow gamers...that way I could PLAY Savage Worlds, instead of always running it. Laughing

They wanted me to return my falling apart copy tho, so I just kept it and will have it coil bound. However, I would still recommend taking them up on their offer if you want a new copy. It's still excellent customer service to offer to replace it!

I used to be a printer, I know that these things happen. That damn glue can be a real pain in the butt. It happened to us all the time. A hose would get clogged up, or just be barely spitting some out. Just enough so that when you checked a copy it seemed fine, but after a few days of use...blam. I hated using the glue lines rather than the stitcher!
Oh and if you get too much it oozes out the ends and makes the stack stick together and ruin the covers. Confused
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kreider204
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Joined: 19 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phloog wrote:
the publisher suggested the coil binding at OfficeMax - - do they drill or whatever the book for you and do the whole shebang? Do they remove the original gluey bits on the spine? It seems like they don't hold enough to keep the pages in, but they'll hold enough to make it rough going removing it all.


Yup, they slice the edge off, including the glued parts, drill the holes, and put the coil on for you. Takes a few minutes, costs a few bucks - definitely worth it!
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tvar
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to have to get this done to the one I have that fell apart. I was worried that it was going to cost more than the $10 it would take to just buy another one, but it sounds like that's not the case. Excellent!
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Agent_Templar
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine fell apart within three days.
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morpha
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Joined: 22 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OH good.

IT only just happened tonight... like 4th session. We Bought 5 EE books for our gaming group and 2 of them has had binding failures...

One had the first couple of pages fall out. The other had the bidding split and separate from the cover.
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Narl
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Joined: 11 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just sent the replacement copy I got from Studio2 back because it failed as well.

I'd recommend Studio2 open and inspect each copy of SWEX before they send it out so they aren't putting more bad copies out there. The problem is pretty obvious as soon as you open the book if you know what to look for.
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Tom Servo
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to add to the chorus. Between the 5 members of one of my regular gaming groups we bought 3 copies of SWEX, 2 of which have pages falling out. These were each bought separately from separate sources. I've contacted those who need to know, but I have to agree...make them to last or inspect them even if the price needs to go up a bit.

Of the other SW books we own, everything else is just great.

Thankfully we have one good copy to keep us going, what a friggen phenomenal game!
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morpha
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the books are cheap compared to other RPG books by far. Ther website I bought them from was $8 american. I'd pay double that for an awesome-hardcover-with-pro-bindings copy... with a proper index.
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FoxBlue
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Location: Fort Collins

PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got my book spiral bound for 6$. Most small print places do it for around that price and staples might to it even cheaper. If you do get it bound go for the nicer binding (non the crappy flat binding).

Also what you could do is print out the index on the website to the correct scale can throw it in when you get your book bound.

Tadaa same book, well bound, that lies flat on the table, has an index and is less than 2x the price!

It's working for me!

Drew!
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Spence
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My book is from the second printing and it is just fine.
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nonefornic
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My EE initial purchase fell apart in the middle of a game session. No one at the table was happy, especially the mage who wanted to use his Fireball-Trapped Bolt Power but couldn't remember the specs. Replacement copy has worked fine to date Smile
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tvar
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got my defective SWEX spiral bound at Office Depot for about $3.50. It worked great, they left plenty of margin, even the pages with the sideways tables.

I feel kind of bad making PEG/Studio2 ship me a replacement now that the book is completely usable again... Embarassed

Now I'm going to spiral bind my replacement SWEX as well as my copy of Necessary Evil. The fact that they will lie flat on the table is such a huge benefit...
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overkill
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My copy has started dropping pages as well and I've had it for less than a week.
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SavageChristian
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My first printing copy is sturdy and sound. My second printing copy is a pile of pages that I will be having spiral bound.
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yrcone
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tvar wrote:
I just got my defective SWEX spiral bound at Office Depot for about $3.50. It worked great, they left plenty of margin, even the pages with the sideways tables.

I feel kind of bad making PEG/Studio2 ship me a replacement now that the book is completely usable again... Embarassed

Now I'm going to spiral bind my replacement SWEX as well as my copy of Necessary Evil. The fact that they will lie flat on the table is such a huge benefit...


My copy is holding up OK, but I like the idea of the spiral bound a lot... do you just take the book in and say - please spiral bound this? I'm intrigued..and if the rebinding doesn't work I can always order a new SWEX... Thanks for any info!
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ron blessing
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yrcone wrote:
tvar wrote:
I just got my defective SWEX spiral bound at Office Depot for about $3.50. It worked great, they left plenty of margin, even the pages with the sideways tables.

I feel kind of bad making PEG/Studio2 ship me a replacement now that the book is completely usable again... Embarassed

Now I'm going to spiral bind my replacement SWEX as well as my copy of Necessary Evil. The fact that they will lie flat on the table is such a huge benefit...


My copy is holding up OK, but I like the idea of the spiral bound a lot... do you just take the book in and say - please spiral bound this? I'm intrigued..and if the rebinding doesn't work I can always order a new SWEX... Thanks for any info!


They pretty much just chop off the binding and run a spiral through it.
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