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How should the Force be handled?
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How would you like to see Force Powers handled in Savage Star Wars? (In other words, would you use the system if it had the chosen option?)
The traditional way; an Arcane Background, an Arcane Skill and Power Points.
6%
 6%  [ 10 ]
The traditional way; an Arcane Background, an Arcane Skill and Power Points.
6%
 6%  [ 10 ]
The traditional way; an Arcane Background, an Arcane Skill and Power Points.
6%
 6%  [ 10 ]
The traditional way; an Arcane Background, an Arcane Skill and Power Points.
6%
 6%  [ 10 ]
Red-24's current way; an Arcane Background, three associated Attributes, Powers with no cost.
2%
 2%  [ 3 ]
Red-24's current way; an Arcane Background, three associated Attributes, Powers with no cost.
2%
 2%  [ 3 ]
Red-24's current way; an Arcane Background, three associated Attributes, Powers with no cost.
2%
 2%  [ 3 ]
Red-24's current way; an Arcane Background, three associated Attributes, Powers with no cost.
2%
 2%  [ 3 ]
Similar to Red-24's current way; an Arcane Background, Powers with no cost, but a single Arcane Skill.
3%
 3%  [ 5 ]
Similar to Red-24's current way; an Arcane Background, Powers with no cost, but a single Arcane Skill.
3%
 3%  [ 5 ]
Similar to Red-24's current way; an Arcane Background, Powers with no cost, but a single Arcane Skill.
3%
 3%  [ 5 ]
Similar to Red-24's current way; an Arcane Background, Powers with no cost, but a single Arcane Skill.
3%
 3%  [ 5 ]
Like Necessary Evil; an Arcane Background, Power Points used to buy Powers that have no cost to use.
7%
 7%  [ 11 ]
Like Necessary Evil; an Arcane Background, Power Points used to buy Powers that have no cost to use.
7%
 7%  [ 11 ]
Like Necessary Evil; an Arcane Background, Power Points used to buy Powers that have no cost to use.
7%
 7%  [ 11 ]
Like Necessary Evil; an Arcane Background, Power Points used to buy Powers that have no cost to use.
7%
 7%  [ 11 ]
Something really different like using Edges to represent different Force Powers.
5%
 5%  [ 8 ]
Something really different like using Edges to represent different Force Powers.
5%
 5%  [ 8 ]
Something really different like using Edges to represent different Force Powers.
5%
 5%  [ 8 ]
Something really different like using Edges to represent different Force Powers.
5%
 5%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 148

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Red-24
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:27 pm    Post subject: How should the Force be handled? Reply with quote

With regard to the question I posed in the thread on my Star Wars conversion, I want to get more of a group consensus on how people like to see the Force handled in a Star Wars conversion. Thanks to those who have spoken up in favor of my system without Power Points.

I still seems to me that this doesn't quite fit the Savage Worlds mold.
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RooksGambit
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I voted "Something really different like Edges...", but I still think the way to go is the Shadowrun magic conversion from Sharkbytes.

It's more flexible than AB+Power Points, but not as powerful as NE, so the Force using characters won't overshadow the rest of the party. You could choose to do this with either a single arcane skill, or with the Force Attributes with a touch more tweaking.
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razorwise
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every step you take away from the traditional methodology is another step towards a new system.

That being said, I voted for traditional AB.

Regards,

Sean
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Red-24
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razorwise wrote:
Every step you take away from the traditional methodology is another step towards a new system.


That's what has made me reconsider my initial, sacreligous aproach. Wink
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Willis
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

if you go with a pp based system, would it be game breaking to have a meditation edge that would let you regain pp's while you meditated? maybe you could get d# pp's back each round as long as you meditate where the #is equal to your spirit die?

Willis #duel
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RooksGambit
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willis wrote:
if you go with a pp based system, would it be game breaking to have a meditation edge that would let you regain pp's while you meditated? maybe you could get d# pp's back each round as long as you meditate where the #is equal to your spirit die?

Willis #duel


Give a Jedi the Soul Drain Edge? Maybe with an improved version, or "Trained Jedi" version to drop (some of?) the penalties to the Spirit roll if they spend a round or two meditating?
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count0
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some ramblings:

They regenerate power points at the rate of 1 a minute - this still makes them think before spending them willy-nilly in combat.

If a Jedi goes down to 0 power points, they must rest for 8 hours before they can regenerate any (Yoda looked tired after lifting the X-Wing).

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deadgirl
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Every step you take away from the traditional methodology is another step towards a new system.


However without a little innovation we get no variation and as Necessary Evil shows (Yay Clint), a step or two from the baseline can be a good thing.

DG
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rook wrote:
I voted "Something really different like Edges...", but I still think the way to go is the Shadowrun magic conversion from Sharkbytes.

It's more flexible than AB+Power Points, but not as powerful as NE, so the Force using characters won't overshadow the rest of the party. You could choose to do this with either a single arcane skill, or with the Force Attributes with a touch more tweaking.


Still the way I think as well. The possibility of being strained by excessive use is there, but there is no finite amount of Force usage. Plus as you get more experience, the minor powers get easier to use.

Basically, it covers two things I feel are intrinsic to the Force.

1. There is no finite limit to its power source.
2. There is a possible downside to channeling too much of that power source.

My two cents.
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Matt DeForrest
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The one thing I think you would want to make sure is there would be either a skill or making it a Spirit roll to actually do what you want. The scene I have in mind is in The Empire Strikes Back when Luke tries (and fails) to lift his X-Wing out of the swamp then Yoda does. There is something in the exhange:

Luke: "I...I don't believe it!"

Yoda: "That is why you fail."

that makes me think there should be some kind of a die type to roll (One, I think, that should be attached to Spirit -- either through a Spirit test or by linking Arcane Skill: The Force to Spirit.) to show how some Force sensitives are so much mroe powerful than others.

I'd recommend a variation on the old WEG system, where the various abilities are classed (Sense, Control, and Alter, as I recall), which are all edges. Once you have the Sense edge, you can use any Sense ability with a successful Spirit test. If you have Sense and Control, the powers listed under both and the "Sense and Control" list would come available.

OK, so the lists of powers aren't as FFF as I might like but they could be there as guides. That way, once you know the type of thing you can do, you're all set. Plus, if the GM has access to the books, a bit of time and effort with the descriptions could give you a list of situational modifiers to slip into your GM screen.

I hope this helps.

Matt

I hope this helps.

Matt
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Simon
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For my Iron Kingdoms game, I've given Warcasters and Gunmages PP/Round, rather than per day. I think it works well, representing the character's ability to channel magic, rather than their innate power. For Star Wars, this would give you a way to have a low level (1PP) force pull grab your light sabre, but a high level (5PP) force pull lift huge blocks of masonry. It also lets Jedi do heaps of cool stuff in one round, i.e. Yoda force pushes a guy (using 2PP), throws his light sabre through another (1PP, -2 MAP), then force jumps onto him to pull it out (2PP). I'd rule that deflecting blaster shots back at people required "saving" PP, leaving them spare to spend when you are shot at.
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lordthrog
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willis wrote:
if you go with a pp based system, would it be game breaking to have a meditation edge that would let you regain pp's while you meditated? maybe you could get d# pp's back each round as long as you meditate where the #is equal to your spirit die?

Willis #duel


This made me think of the Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul fight in Phantom Menace. When the Force Field wall go up and Qui-Gon sits and Meditates and Darth Maul paces working up his rage. That could be the methods of rebuilding the power points in combat rounds, when there is a break.
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razorwise
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red-24 wrote:
razorwise wrote:
Every step you take away from the traditional methodology is another step towards a new system.


That's what has made me reconsider my initial, sacreligous aproach. Wink


Here is what I came up with on the "Another Go at the Force" thread. See any salvagable material in here?

***

Jedi Mind Trick would definitely be an opposed roll (besides being a pretty good band. )

Okay, I finally saw the movie yesterday, so I'm throwing my two cents in on the Light side.

My suggestions on your whole PP thing is to use PP and then just add in variants of Wizard and then extend that up.

Player would start as an Apprentice than migrate to Jedi Knight and then Jedi Master...


Jedi Knight would function as Weird Edge: Wizard with the Pre-Reqs of Seasoned added in.

Example:

Jedi Knight
Requirements: Seasoned, AB(Jedi), Spirit d8+, Knowledge (Force) d8+, Use Force d6+

The Jedi Knight better understands the Force than an Apprentice and may more easily channel Force powers. Each raise on Use Force reduces the cost of using a Force power by 1.

Jedi Master would function as a new Weird Edge that would have the Pre-Reqs of Veteran and Jedi Knight added in. It would be as follows:

Jedi Master
Requirements: Veteran, Jedi Knight, Spirit d10+, Knowledge (Force) d10+, Use Force d8+

The Jedi Master truly understands the power of the Force. A success and each subsequent raise reduces the cost of using a Force power by 1.

Call More Power...
Requirements: Heroic, Jedi Master, Knowledge (Force) d10+

This would function as Soul Drain and is not inherently corrupting, if one has taken this as an Edge (i.e. earned it.) As such, it would explain why such Jedi greats as Yoda can keep on going...

As for handling the Dark Side, I'd allow ANY Jedi character the ability to use the Call More Power Edge free of charge. (That's the alluring part of the Dark Side, limitless power, right?) He makes a Spirit roll minus the number of Points he wants to drain and he may use these Points towards any Force Power. For each Dark Point he calls up, he loses one point of his Soul, this attribute can go into the negative. (What to do with it, when it reaches zero or less is another question...)

You could add in a new attribute, Soul, to gauge the loss of humanity. It would be equal to Spirit/2+2.

Anyway, that's my two cents.


***

As already pointed out, not all Jedi are uber-awesome. The movies pointed out the, dare I say, the Heroic and Legendary ones? Razz

Regards,

Sean
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chatterbox
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm of more than one opinion on this... I think the Force can be done pretty well using the standard powers and PPs system in the core book, yet i want to see a system that allows even novice characters to keep using force powers without "running out". I like reading everyone's ideas and opinions on how to model the Force, i really don't think there's any one 'right' way, different methods just work better for different 'style' games.
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Red-24
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razorwise wrote:
[Here is what I came up with on the "Another Go at the Force" thread. See any salvagable material in here?


Hey Sean,

I already captured your stuff from that thread. As well, I have been in dialog with DerFinsterling about his conversion and plan to mix in some of his ideas.

Thanks for everyones comments and keep the polling coming. Even though I can already see that there is not going to be anything close to a consensus, I am interested in seeing the broad view.

I am leaning towards the traditional Power Point system for two reasons. One, it naturally limits the extent of one character types powers to as to not be better than all the other characters. Two, it means people picking up my conversion don't need to learn something different or get confused about my Abilities = Skills situation.

To DeadGirl, Willis and ohoh7pak (and anyone I missed): Thanks for your vote of confidence on my original conversion. I will try to make my update to your liking.

Keep on Voting.
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Rorschach
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also everyone needs to keep in mind some party balance. Why would anyone play a pilot or scoundrel or anything else for that matter if you've got a limitless Arcane Power? The AB rules were created as a balanced way for weird characters to play in a Savage Worlds game.

As EpII showed in the battle at Geonosis Jedi that were not the major characters of the story were not super powerful and died easily by being outnumbered or meeting competent forces without backup. Heroic or Legendary Jedi could be nigh invulnerable and combat gods, but newbies should face real danger just like the rest of the party. In my opinion that makes a better game, not necessarily a good movie. Wink

As razorwise already put it, the more you change the more it's not SW. Of course everyone has their own opinions on what works, but as the author of the other SW conversion I started back in the days before the book was published I still stand by my take on how to handle the Force, Dark Side, and lightsabers in Savage Worlds.
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Red-24
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rorschach wrote:
Also everyone needs to keep in mind some party balance. Why would anyone play a pilot or scoundrel or anything else for that matter if you've got a limitless Arcane Power?


Agreed. And while the standard rules limit power through power points, my original conversion limited power through limiting the controlling traits and putting other restrictions like "once per encounter" etc. The problem is that in Savage Worlds that doesn't feel right to me. Hence the poll and discussions.

Rorschach wrote:
I still stand by my take on how to handle the Force, Dark Side, and lightsabers in Savage Worlds.


And thanks for starting it off, Paul. I likely would have run with exactly what you had except that I was looking for more (such as vehicles and starship stats). In starting to convert some of those things I found myself thinking a lot about the Force and it's unlimited source. However, in thinking about my view of the Force itself, I got mixed up into seeing the game mechanic of Power Points as limiting to the Force and therefore not a good representation. After that, my creation of Force edges and Powers just spiraled out of control.

That said, to all those who see PP as not representing the Force very well (as I initially did), if you consider that the PPs are just a game mechanic to keep the powers in check, and don't think about PP use as what the character is doing when using the Force, it's easier to see PP as a valid Force system. PP running out just represent the characters weariness from exerting his control over the Force. The ability to use the Force doesn't go away, it's just diminished.

One problem I had initially was the idea of Lightsaber control from using the Force. In d6, this was a Force Power. So that's how I was viewing it. But if it required PPs it would burn them up rather fast in combat. Others have stated it as an Edge, which makes way more sense and gives way to unlimited use of it.

If you don't mind, Paul. I am going to incorporate much more of what you put together into my conversion. My goal is not to create another conversion (per se) but to keep compiling converted information into a usable document that can grow. The closer we are to a consensus, the easier it will be for others to use what I have put together, which is part of my goal. People are going to modify the heck out of things for their own games anyway.

Sorry for rambling, but with all the discussions between various Star Wars converters, I'm begining to see the common threads and ideas and just want to compile them into something consistant.

Keep the votes coming people.
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Rorschach
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Red-24 wrote:

If you don't mind, Paul. I am going to incorporate much more of what you put together into my conversion. My goal is not to create another conversion (per se) but to keep compiling converted information into a usable document that can grow. The closer we are to a consensus, the easier it will be for others to use what I have put together, which is part of my goal. People are going to modify the heck out of things for their own games anyway.


I don't mind at all, but you're right about not worrying too much about forming a consensus or the one true SW conversion. Everyone is going to have their opinions and not everyone will agree with your decisions. Just do what works for you and your game and if other people like it, cool or they might just use bits an pieces from it and make their own (hmmm, that sounds familiar. Smile ) It's one of the advantages of Savage Worlds is that conversions are quite easy.

I haven't updated my conversion in quite a while since I don't have an active game going. This is a source of some consternation for me but moving to San Diego from Kansas City will tend to require you to build back up your gaming ties.

To be honest I wasn't referring to the the d6 version that much when I was converting so that's why you don't see the Control, Sense, Alter mechanic for the Force in my conversion or some other WEG-isms. I really tried to use the movies and non RPG material as the source and maybe a bit of the d20 version as reference, converting some stats for the meager bestiary and a basis for PC races.
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Byron
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the major thing I did differently from Paul's original document was to allow anybody to attempt any power unskilled (d4-2). I also used individual skills (a la Superpowers) for individual force powers instead of a single Force Use skill. The new power edge became irrelevant because once you knew the skill you knew the power. So I kind of split the difference between the D6 version of SW and standard Savage Worlds. I found that my players had no problems grasping this situation, and in an ongoing campaign I can see it being just as expensive if not more so than the standard way of doing things since a new skill is equal to a new edge as far as leveling up goes, and you have to continue to improve that skill to be good at using that power. To represent "strength in the force" I gave extra power points via background edges to certain people like Luke Skywalker.

I'm not entirely sure what I would do if I wanted to start from scratch and represnt the novels I've read and all 6 feature films.

Byron
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perplext
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

what would happen if you replaced a jedi's wild die with the die type of their force skill? that way they're naturally better at nearly everything simply through channeling the force. this would be separate from using actual powers like force push.

or as a general power you could allow them to add their force skill die type to any roll for a cost in points. for when you just have to make that piloting roll. if a character had a d8 in fighting and a d10 in force their roll might look like this: 7, 4(WD), 9(FD). 7+9=16. would this overpower fighting compared to Parry scores? i can't think of a simple way to remedy that if it does.
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