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Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
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| Mecha are... |
| Big Robots. |
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| Big Robots. |
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| Big Robots. |
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| Big Robots. |
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| Just Different Vehicles. |
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| Just Different Vehicles. |
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| Just Different Vehicles. |
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| Just Different Vehicles. |
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| Totally Freakin' COOL!!!!! |
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| Totally Freakin' COOL!!!!! |
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| Totally Freakin' COOL!!!!! |
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| Totally Freakin' COOL!!!!! |
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| Total Votes : 96 |
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Savage_Joker
Seasoned
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 133
Location: Living in the age of super-boredom, hype and mediocracy.
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 Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:45 am Post subject: |
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something i've been knocking around in my noggin. Has there been any thought to "heat Management" similar to Battletech n' such? I was thinking that "heat Sinks" would be a die type and heat could be a target number. theres no more specifics I can give you until we have more fleshed out rules for this whole thing. any ideas?
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jblittlefield
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:42 am Post subject: |
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| Savage_Joker wrote: | | something i've been knocking around in my noggin. Has there been any thought to "heat Management" similar to Battletech n' such? I was thinking that "heat Sinks" would be a die type and heat could be a target number. theres no more specifics I can give you until we have more fleshed out rules for this whole thing. any ideas? |
Sounds setting-specific to me.
Maybe you can act a number of rounds equal to Vigor. After that, make a Vigor roll before taking your action or suffer a level of Fatigue...  |
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razorwise
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | jblittlefield wrote: | | You just want me to feel the pain you felt when you cobbled together your original rules...you sadistic SOB! |
Cobbled? 
No, I'm just pointing out the fact that you've already stepped on the rusty nail... it just takes time for the novacaine that was coating it to wear off. But you may as well fix that hangnail while the novacaine is still working.  |
I've got the feeling that Clint is enjoying this a little too much?
Ahem. Yes, Size is setting specific as are heatsinks.
One of my long time friends and playtesters has been secretly reading this thread and piped up about it during our session last night. He, too, is opposed to Mecha scale, but appreciates the conundrum of balance versus Mecha weapons.
I'm still mulling this over. I think I may be near a viable resolution that can be bent, spindled, and mutilated.
Regards,
Sean
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Byron
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Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 129
Location: Columbia, MO
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | Personally, I don't think it is possible to create a (and this exact description is important) completely customizable set of mecha creation rules as vehicles compatible with the vehicles in the book. <whew>
Now, it's obscenely easy for a GM to just create mecha vehicles for a specific setting, pre-built and pre-armed. Heck, with a few more minutes, you could probably come up with a "hard-point" type system for switching out certain weapons.
But the core rules I gave to jb were originally designed for a setting where the players would be able to create any type of mecha with any type of weaponry. Putting creation in the hands of the players requires a system that is internally balanced. I simply don't think that is possible with vehicles and Heavy weapons. |
Who would have thought I'd join these boards just to respond to a mecha thread. Anyway. Clint, are you saying that it's not possible to write up a mecha with vehicle stats and have it still be capable of all the cool mecha stunts like sword fighting and lifting and throwing buildings, or are you saying it's not possible to write up a mechanized character (whether that character's brain is pilot or a computer, etc.) that interacts well with the vehicles in the core rules?
I wrote a set of vehicle design rules, but I didn't try making huge mecha cause 1) if I started I'd have to convert my backlog from one of my Mekton/BESM settings, and 2) cause I didn't want to put point costs to every aspect of weapon creation rules. Since I was handwaving the one, I figured I'd have to handwave the other, but this sounds like a challenge! 
Anyway, let's think about how some of the other construction systems do it and see if any of it can be applied to help you guys.
In Mekton Zeta+ the construction system is designed around mecha, standard vehicles such as tanks are just mecha without certain modules like arms. This works remarkably well if you're interested in total detail. Mechs and vehicles are 100% compatible as vehicles are just handicapped mecha.
In Silhouette (Jovian Chronicles/Heavy Gear etc.) mechs are vehicles with a few extra options (arms being the only huge difference) This again makes them totally compatible, and the setting rules really determine what you can do with a vehicle with arms that you can't in a regular vehicle.
In Big Eyes, Small Mouth mechs are (for the most part) collections of special abilities and weapons that the pilot and passengers get to use to enhance their own abilities. They have a 'hit points' total cause they are objects too, but they don't have stats. There is no vehicle system to really worry about in BESM, but they would be constructed the same way, so again 100% compatible.
So, depending on if you want to go the mecha=vehicles route, or the mecha=giant characters route, you should be able to mimic the genre effectively. All 3 of the above games can handle 85% of mecha I've ever seen (including Gundam, Gunbuster, and Magic Knights Rayearth) and I'm also assuming when you say Mecha you mean giant robot (humanoid or otherwise) cause in Japan, mecha can mean a stock honda motorcycle as well.
So to refine the problem even more, you're essentially trying to make giant characters interact directly with vehicles. In that case I'd just have a size scale, and standard modifiers for each scale of size. Go the BESM route as much as you can. When the pilot is in the mecha, he suddenly gets a boost in pace, the ability to fly, an increase in his Strength attribute, X points of heavy armor that applies to the pilot and the suit as appropriate, a big gun, and a big blazing sword that does Str+5(Heavy weapon, AP 5), the Large creature trait, and a set of 3 wounds besides his own to represent the mechs structure. (This is important because Superhero Mecha genre shows often have weapons that directly affect the pilot and the armor usually helps keep the pilot from simply incinerating. There is a mech in original Gundam that does this too.)
If the suit makes the pilot Size +4, and that gives 6 increases in Strength steps then no matter who gets in it, they get superstrength. A d6 would go to d12+3, plus they get all the other cool benefits. Now, should you charge edges or MCPs for the cool benefits that aren't size based? I can't offer an opinion on that, but it seems to me characters already interact passibly well with vehicles, so since you're going the giant character route, why create an intermediary sub-system between the two? If you want all Mecha of a certain size to start at the same level of superstrength, just have a static value that can be altered slightly.
Personally, I think the whole, frame concept is what's causing the biggest headaches. How do you decide how to differentiate two light mechs if they both start with the same frame? It may be easier to say that one light mech is stronger than the other because of extra features built specifically into that model, but you aren't arbitrarily limiting mobilty based soley on size by doing it this way, and one is only more agile than the other if it has that as a special feature. Say Extra Maneuverability adds a flat bonus to piloting checks (like a handling modifier for advanced vehicles), and since for mecha it becomes more important in combat, just say the same modifier adds directly to the piloting based parry stat.
I hope a change in thinking of this sort will address the majority of the issues I've seen discussed. But of course I haven't been reading this thread from start to finish, so forgive me if I left out a hot topic.
Byron D. Molix |
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Clint
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| razorwise wrote: | | I've got the feeling that Clint is enjoying this a little too much? |
You're correct. I apologize. 
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Clint
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Byron wrote: | | Clint wrote: | Personally, I don't think it is possible to create a (and this exact description is important) completely customizable set of mecha creation rules as vehicles compatible with the vehicles in the book. <whew>
Now, it's obscenely easy for a GM to just create mecha vehicles for a specific setting, pre-built and pre-armed. Heck, with a few more minutes, you could probably come up with a "hard-point" type system for switching out certain weapons.
But the core rules I gave to jb were originally designed for a setting where the players would be able to create any type of mecha with any type of weaponry. Putting creation in the hands of the players requires a system that is internally balanced. I simply don't think that is possible with vehicles and Heavy weapons. |
Who would have thought I'd join these boards just to respond to a mecha thread. Anyway. Clint, are you saying that it's not possible to write up a mecha with vehicle stats and have it still be capable of all the cool mecha stunts like sword fighting and lifting and throwing buildings, or are you saying it's not possible to write up a mechanized character (whether that character's brain is pilot or a computer, etc.) that interacts well with the vehicles in the core rules? |
Neither.
I'm saying it is not possible to create...
A balanced set of mecha creation rules that...
creates customizable mecha as vehicles per the SW rulebook...
is compatible with said vehicles and weapons...
and can be used by players to create their own mechs with no more GM supervision than character creation.
Basically, I don't think a system that would allow players to create their own armed mecha that is based on the vehicle/weapon rules is possible.
A little more specific below...
| Byron wrote: | | I wrote a set of vehicle design rules, but I didn't try making huge mecha cause 1) if I started I'd have to convert my backlog from one of my Mekton/BESM settings, and 2) cause I didn't want to put point costs to every aspect of weapon creation rules. Since I was handwaving the one, I figured I'd have to handwave the other, but this sounds like a challenge! |
And so it would be! The major challenge is what you have hit... weapons. Balancing weapon and armor creation in vehicles that would be compatible with the vehicles in the book is a challenge to say the least. Then making a system that players can use unsupervised...
All I can say is good luck.
The player part is really the trick. As a GM, I don't need vehicle design rules; I can do it in a blink. Like I said, I could have mecha as vehicles that are completely compatible in a heartbeat... but the creation of said mecha would fall mostly to me as GM.
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jblittlefield
Legendary
Joined: 13 May 2003
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | The player part is really the trick. As a GM, I don't need vehicle design rules; I can do it in a blink. Like I said, I could have mecha as vehicles that are completely compatible in a heartbeat... but the creation of said mecha would fall mostly to me as GM. |
Which is the ultimate conclusion I have finally arrived at.... |
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razorwise
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | razorwise wrote: | | I've got the feeling that Clint is enjoying this a little too much? |
You're correct. I apologize. |
No problem. I was smirking when I typed that original note.
| jblittlefield wrote: |
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| Clint wrote: |
The player part is really the trick. As a GM, I don't need vehicle design rules; I can do it in a blink. Like I said, I could have mecha as vehicles that are completely compatible in a heartbeat... but the creation of said mecha would fall mostly to me as GM.
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Which is the ultimate conclusion I have finally arrived at....
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Okay. I'm not discounting the possibility that it could be used by players, but that was never the original scope, was it?
My thinking is that the scope of this project is to give developers the rules to create a semblance of compatibility, which I still don't think is entirely impossible. Is it?
Remember: my brain has been steeping in sleep and steam and mystic dream.
Regards,
Sean
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Clint
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| razorwise wrote: | Okay. I'm not discounting the possibility that it could be used by players, but that was never the original scope, was it?
My thinking is that the scope of this project is to give developers the rules to create a semblance of compatibility, which I still don't think is entirely impossible. Is it? |
Ah, but are they separate?
See, the key to making a system usable by players is creating one with an intrinsic internal balance.
Isn't that also the requirement to creating a set of rules that provide compatibility? I think so.
So if you get one, you automatically get the other.
Oh, and I certainly don't think it can't be done (in fact, I think I've pretty much done it with a few tweaks from this discussion); I just don't think such a system can be based off the vehicle/heavy weapon rules.
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jblittlefield
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | Oh, and I certainly don't think it can't be done (in fact, I think I've pretty much done it with a few tweaks from this discussion); I just don't think such a system can be based off the vehicle/heavy weapon rules. |
So let's see it ... |
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razorwise
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | razorwise wrote: | Okay. I'm not discounting the possibility that it could be used by players, but that was never the original scope, was it?
My thinking is that the scope of this project is to give developers the rules to create a semblance of compatibility, which I still don't think is entirely impossible. Is it? |
Ah, but are they separate?
See, the key to making a system usable by players is creating one with an intrinsic internal balance.
Isn't that also the requirement to creating a set of rules that provide compatibility? I think so.
So if you get one, you automatically get the other.
Oh, and I certainly don't think it can't be done (in fact, I think I've pretty much done it with a few tweaks from this discussion); I just don't think such a system can be based off the vehicle/heavy weapon rules. |
Ah...The delightful dance of semantics. Ahem. Evidently you've seen the Lingustic Shuffle before.
True enough. If you get one, you, more or less, get the other. Balance is the key, but vehicles have to fit somehow into the equation. Don't they? I agreed from the onset that basing them off of the vehicle rules wasn't the best route to take, but the Mecha still have to play well with the vehicles (at least in regards to Smacking them with attacks).
Couldn't some variation of the Gargantuation Edge work if the Mecha were big enough??? (I've been thinking...dangerous though it might be...that some Mecha can be affected by normal size entities (i.e. Humans) while others need tanks to damage them) so having the Mega-Mecha Edge available (or give it away free in certain settings) might be a viable non-setting specific solution? If we at least agree on a baseline, the Mecha can still play together...
This is definitely not on my agenda to work on today, but it's like fiddling with a loose tooth...
In my thinking, the only way to build Mecha like vehicles is to rebuild vehicle and heavy weapon rules which, I'm certain, we all agree we have NO desire to do. Right?
Clint, I'd like to see what you've "pretty much done", btw...
Regards,
Sean
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charliebananas
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Joined: 17 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| jblittlefield wrote: | | charliebananas wrote: | | How do you determine what size mech a character gets, if owning a mech is an edge? |
Doesn't matter -- such things are beyond the scope of this document and are more the purview of the individual designer/developer/author as they should be based on the specific setting. |
I have to disagree, if the two don't mesh then whats the point of the document. the basics have tobe in place or you'll end up shoehorning your rules into the setting. IMHO
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Clint
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| razorwise wrote: | | In my thinking, the only way to build Mecha like vehicles is to rebuild vehicle and heavy weapon rules which, I'm certain, we all agree we have NO desire to do. Right? |
Yep, pretty much defeats the purpose. If it is going to be compatible, it has to be compatible with the core rulebook definitely.
And yes, I dance the linguistic shuffle quite well. It is why I have tried to be painstakingly detailed in how I phrased my comments.
I don't think it is impossible to make a system that is compatible with the Vehicle/Heavy Weapon rules; I just don't think the system can be based off of them.
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Clint
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| charliebananas wrote: | | jblittlefield wrote: | | charliebananas wrote: | | How do you determine what size mech a character gets, if owning a mech is an edge? |
Doesn't matter -- such things are beyond the scope of this document and are more the purview of the individual designer/developer/author as they should be based on the specific setting. |
I have to disagree, if the two don't mesh then whats the point of the document. the basics have tobe in place or you'll end up shoehorning your rules into the setting. |
I think what jb is trying to say is that Mechs are built with points. The size of the mech depends on the points allocated. The points available are dependent on the setting.
So if the Edge allows you to own a mech, then it says, "You have a mech and XX points with which to build it."
Or in some settings, it could say, "You have a mech. Choose from the Light Mechs on page XX." Where all the Light Mechs are built with a set number of points beforehand.
Then you could have another Edge that gives you more points in one setting or allows you to pick from an "Upgrade List" in a different one, where one upgrade might be swapping out for a "Medium Mech."
Make sense?
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jblittlefield
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| charliebananas wrote: | | jblittlefield wrote: | | charliebananas wrote: | | How do you determine what size mech a character gets, if owning a mech is an edge? |
Doesn't matter -- such things are beyond the scope of this document and are more the purview of the individual designer/developer/author as they should be based on the specific setting. |
I have to disagree, if the two don't mesh then whats the point of the document. the basics have tobe in place or you'll end up shoehorning your rules into the setting. IMHO |
Since you're building your mecha using MCP (and Size will cost MCP) then the Size you end up with is up to you. The Edge just grants you a specific number of MCP. |
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Byron
Seasoned
Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 129
Location: Columbia, MO
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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I already wrote a vehicle construction system based entirely on the core rules. I didn't write a similarly detailed weapon construction system. I figured one 6 page document was enough. However, since the current trend seems more on the mecha = giant character tack, I figure since I'm a late joiner to the thread I should focus on how to make that work well.
I also don't think access to mecha should be solely regulated by an edge, simply because buying a fighter jet isn't regulated by an edge, but it should be an option. I like the idea of the GM handing the players X amount of MCP. On the other hand, in a setting with Arcane Backgrounds, it is probable that the GM will not be handing out MCP, so it is appropriate to have edges so you can explain the presence of this big hulking thing, and how it seems to get much better with only occassional overhauling.
A little view behind my desire to be involved is I once ran a big mecha campaign using BESM that is screaming out for an update. When I ran Shattered Earth: 2201 I gave people options to take a mech I had designed (or forced one on them depending on character concept) and they could mod it using the rules, or they could design something from scratch (as long as they didn't destroy the underlying rules for mecha I had for the game.) Consequently, I had one custom build (no involvement from me), two experimental units (which I helped design, one to spec for the player), and the rest were stock units. Most everybody was generally satisfied with what they got out of their mechs.
So I tend to agree with the majority of people here; I don't want something where the system polices my players, I just want something where they don't need me around to be creative and help shape the game. This is incidentally the same philosophy I had behind my VCS, but while it's thorough it isn't exactly simple. I also tend to be the sort of GM that wants to make "point accurate" NPCs and vehicles, so such a system is useful to me as a GM, but the main impetus is to let PCs go as wild as the resources they are given will allow, right?
Byron D. Molix |
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charliebananas
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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O.K. now i'm with you, i was under the impression that you recieved X amount of MCP dependant on the size of mech you were making, but what your saying is each player gets a set amount of MCP, then buys up the size from there.
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razorwise
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| Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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One observation: people shouldn't be hung up by having Mecha as an Edge in any case. Remember NE? Superpowers is an Edge, but Players already start with that. It's a simple tweak, if you're running a world where everyone has Mecha, you could easily just say, "Hey, Free Mecha Edge"....
BTW, I'm gonna mull over the Mecha Rules tonight (well, not all night, I may very well play Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory for awhile.)
I'm certain I can think about some of these issues while exercising my Fifth Freedom. 
Regards,
Sean
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Byron
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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any updates in this thread?
Byron |
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Boulder
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| Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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Most everyone involved in this thread has been trying to get their settings written, published, etc. The Mecha discussion has been put on hold temporarily I would assume.
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