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Hucksters - critique please
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How's it look?
Better than the last version
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Better than the last version
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Better than the last version
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Useful/ Pretty good
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Useful/ Pretty good
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Useful/ Pretty good
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Still Piss Poor
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Still Piss Poor
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Still Piss Poor
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Still Piss Poor
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Total Votes : 32

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Leitchy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'l read the thread, looked at the Deadlands rules, and the SW conversion on the website, and have a few thoughts about the huckster. Firstly, I'm with Clint and think the PP limitation should be dropped. It just doesn't have the right "feel" for me. I also like the idea that Gambling is the "magic" skill. Smile

Here's my take; opinions, comments, and deconstructions welcome.

HUCKSTER - Arcane Background (Hexslingin')
Required Skills - Gambling [Smarts], Knowledge (Card Games) [Smarts]

Hucksters start with three hexes and do not use power points; the number of points they have for any hex is determined by luck and their Gambling skill. The huckster uses their Gambling skill to determine the number of cards they get (and, yes, they can cheat the spirits). Success and each raise gives and additional card; they can also spend a benny per card for additional cards.

Ace High - 1PP
Pair - 2PP
Jacks or better - 3PP
Two Pairs - 4PP
Three of a Kind - 5PP
Straight - 6PP
Flush - 7PP
Full House - 8PP
Four of a Kind - 10PP
Straight Flush - 15PP
Royal Flush - 20PP

If the Gambling roll fails, the huckster can't cast anything, but gets dealt five cards anyway, and simply suffers any consequences (Black Jokers, Suicide Kings). If the huckster tries to cheat and fails, or rolls a one on the Gambling die (whatever the wild die result), the result will be bad {see below}. Rolling Snake Eyes, is also bad...being caught cheating make everything worse.

The hand produced by the huckster determines the number of PP that can be used to power the hex. If there are more PP than the hex needs, the remainder are wasted. Additional points can be used to extend the duration of those hexes that permit it.

Hucksters cannot use hexes beyond their ranks, just as normal magicians. For example, a Novice huckster cannot shapechange into a bear, no matter what hand they draw. However, they could maintain the shape of a cat for a very long time if they draw a straight flush.

The Knowledge (Card Games) skill is required since this puts them on a level playing field with other magic-using characters. The skill is used to determine if they can learn a new hex whenever they take the New Power Edge. They must get a raise on this roll, or they cannot learn a hex at that time. They do not lose the level-up opportunity; it simply cannot be used to take the New Power Edge at that time. Having a 1793 edition of Hoyles adds +2 to this roll.

Deadman's Hand: works as normal; ie. instant kill if a damaging spell is cast.

Detrimental Effects:
Black Joker: damage equals 1d6+PP; the huckster only loses the hex if they take a wound.
Suicide King: damage equals 1d6+PP; the huckster only loses the hex if they take a wound. Also roll on the Injury Table for a temporary effect.
Rolling 1 on the Gambling die: Cut the cards; the difference between the two is the damage taken (Aces are 14, Kings 13, etc. for this purpose). Alternatively, roll 2d6, and do not Ace).
Rolling Snake Eyes: Cut the cards; difference equals damage x2.
Caught Cheating: damage equals 2d8 and doubles effect of all other cards. Suicide King Injury Table results are permanent.

All damage results are cumulative. The worst that can happen is rolling Snake Eyes when cheating, and the subsequent hand has both the Black Joker and Suicide King. Result: damage equals 4d6 (and Aces) + 2d8 (and Aces) + (card cut of Ace & Deuce, doubled); also roll on Injury Table - result is permanent. PP are not counted because the hex failed.

That's the Luck of the Draw! #evil
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Mort
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bill wrote:
I'm still not sure why you are bothering with the multiple raises? For FFF just say:

A pair you succeed but are shaken
anything better you succeed with a raise.


Many of the non damaging spells have benefits for more than 1 raise. if we change all the numeric additional effects to +1d6 this would work well.

Otherwise, you'd use something similar to what you're talking about anyway however unlike with a dice roll you still need the poker hand rankings (especially if the huckster player doesn't play much poker).


Bill wrote:

Now if the better hands reduced the power point costs to a minimum of zero then they would be worth going for! (up to six points off a casting with a royal flush!)


It's called wizard (well with a more huckstery name & prereqs)
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Mort
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leitchy wrote:

Hucksters start with three hexes and do not use power points; the number of points they have for any hex is determined by luck and their Gambling skill. The huckster uses their Gambling skill to determine the number of cards they get (and, yes, they can cheat the spirits). Success and each raise gives and additional card; they can also spend a benny per card for additional cards.


Seems a little slow to me - It also means that Hucksters have two chances to fail. Once on your Die Roll & once on their card draw.


Leitchy wrote:

Ace High - 1PP
Pair - 2PP
Jacks or better - 3PP
Two Pairs - 4PP
Three of a Kind - 5PP
Straight - 6PP
Flush - 7PP
Full House - 8PP
Four of a Kind - 10PP
Straight Flush - 15PP
Royal Flush - 20PP


Looks ok but I dislike "Ace high". It's far too likely to come up (meaning Hucksters practically always have at least 1 PP to use)

Leitchy wrote:

The skill is used to determine if they can learn a new hex whenever they take the New Power Edge. They must get a raise on this roll, or they cannot learn a hex at that time.

Harsh - If they pick New power as an edge they shouldn't need a roll. It also means Hucksters can't come up with their "own" Hexes with this edge.

Leitchy wrote:

Deadman's Hand: works as normal; ie. instant kill if a damaging spell is cast.

Kinda powerful with a large blast or a long fire barrier. Also how much pp does it provide?

Leitchy wrote:


Suicide King: damage equals 1d6+PP; the huckster only loses the hex if they take a wound. Also roll on the Injury Table for a temporary effect.
.
.
.
Suicide King Injury Table results are permanent.

looks good but is the suicide king injury temporary or permanant

Leitchy wrote:

All damage results are cumulative.


So say you draw a royal flush with a Suicide king & a joker you take 20+20+1d6+1d6 damage? Ouch.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mort wrote:
Looks ok but I dislike "Ace high". It's far too likely to come up (meaning Hucksters practically always have at least 1 PP to use)


Think of it this way, 1 PP powers are the equivalent of Tricks in Deadlands; minor effects but easy to do. Light, a simple Barrier covering 1", or a single attack that does 2d6 damage...

Yeah, the 2d6 damage effect is the equivalent of one shot off a gun, but considering the risk involved to get it, I think it's okay.

Hmm, in fact, I'd probably make a new Power called "Tricks" and incorporate a bunch of minor effects in it for 1 PP.

Mort wrote:
Many of the non damaging spells have benefits for more than 1 raise.


They do? Which ones? It'd have to be in Revised (which I don't have to reference right now).
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Mort
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:

Hmm, in fact, I'd probably make a new Power called "Tricks" and incorporate a bunch of minor effects in it for 1 PP.


Or just rename "elemental manipulation" Razz

Clint wrote:

Mort wrote:
Many of the non damaging spells have benefits for more than 1 raise.


They do? Which ones? It'd have to be in Revised (which I don't have to reference right now).


Bah, quit showing me up - turns out I'm mistaking house rules for real rules - none of the powers have a listed effect for more than 1 raise Embarassed
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Leitchy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mort wrote:
Leitchy wrote:
The huckster uses their Gambling skill to determine the number of cards they get (and, yes, they can cheat the spirits). Success and each raise gives and additional card; they can also spend a benny per card for additional cards.

Seems a little slow to me - It also means that Hucksters have two chances to fail. Once on your Die Roll & once on their card draw.


That's the whole point. It's all about the luck of the draw. And even when you win, you can lose. Smile

If the character doesn't get cards, they aren't a huckster, IMHO. Cards are the whole schtick for this character type. So, my friends and I tried to maintain the feel and flavour of the huckster, while making the mechanics as FFF as possible.

Select the spell, roll the dice, deal the cards, make the hand, determine the PP, suffer any consequences. It's as good as we can get, and still be a huckster. Smile

It's actually not too bad. Slower than normal magicians, but a whole lot more fun to watch. Smile

BTW, Ace High is a legitimate poker hand, and if the spell selected requires more than one PP, and all the huckster gets is an Ace, the spell fails. I don't know about anyone else, but in our game, the player has to select the spell first and THEN try to get the cards to power it. The only time this doesn't matter as much is when the spell effect is variable. For example, the player selects Soul Blast (Bolt), and then makes the hand; whatever the power, that's the maximum effect they can choose to have. So if the hand generates 1 PP, there is only one bolt of 2d6 power. If they generate 6 or more PP, they may choose to do up to 3 x 3d6 bolts.

But of they choose to do Great Healing, then they MUST get a Royal Flush. This is balanced by the fact that they don't have any PP limitations, so they can keep trying and trying and trying. Smile
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Mort
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leitchy wrote:


If the character doesn't get cards, they aren't a huckster, IMHO.

Yep. Same opinion here - is the skill roll necessary though?
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Leitchy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mort wrote:
Leitchy wrote:


If the character doesn't get cards, they aren't a huckster, IMHO.

Yep. Same opinion here - is the skill roll necessary though?

C'mon! There has to be at least one roll! Laughing

Some people would have preferred two rolls; a Hexslingin' roll (ie, magic), and a Gambling roll, but IMO a single roll is sufficient.

How else are you going to determine the "luck of the draw"...I mean, the number of cards the huckster gets to make up the poker hand? How are you going to work in cheating? A huckster has to have the opportunity to cheat the spirits... Wink

More to the point, like pretty much everything else in Savage Worlds, a huckster's magic is a trait...and traits are tested by rolls. It's really no different in that respect to a Fighting roll...or indeed, a regular Gambling roll.

So how would YOU propose to do it, Mort?
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Mort
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leitchy wrote:

So how would YOU propose to do it, Mort?


Call the amount of cards they draw a derived trait base off gambling & allow them to spend bennies if they want to make a gambling roll for extra cards.
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Leitchy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mort wrote:
Leitchy wrote:

So how would YOU propose to do it, Mort?

Call the amount of cards they draw a derived trait base off gambling & allow them to spend bennies if they want to make a gambling roll for extra cards.


2+half Gambling, one assumes?? With a d8 in Gambling (which is probably the minimum score for a beginning huckster PC), that makes six cards. Hmmmm....that's actually not bad, although it's not random enough, IMHO. And making them spend bennies to get extra cards is a little stiff, isn't it? Smile

But it's certainly a viable alternative. Good thought, Mort... Laughing
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BDFlory
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, I've been mulling this over a bit, and here's a quick and dirty system. The odds could stand to be analyzed a bit more closely, but I'm not going to bother for a forum post. Razz

First things first: we're going to determine which elements we can keep from the classic system, and what we need to ditch to make things F!F!F! As a rule, it's best to strip actions down to a single die roll, though in this case, we want the card draw mechanic to reflect the original flavor of the AB. So, instead, we'll make it a single hand draw, with no dice required.

That said, a Trait should still be used to govern the huckster's skill, so let's introduce the Hexslingin' skill (Smarts). This skill is rated on a d4-d12 scale as normal, but is never rolled. Instead, the huckster gains a number of redraws on his hand (which must all be taken at once) equal to his skill, where a d4=1, a d6=2, a d8=3, and so on.

Further, as the huckster's Rank increases, his capacity to challenge more powerful manitou increases. This improves his odds of slinging a powerful spell, but increases his risk as well. We'll give the huckster one stud per rank, in addition to a basic 5 card hand. IOW, a Novice with a d6 in Hexslingin' draws 5 cards +1 for Rank (for a total of 6 cards), and may redraw (d6=2) cards, then make his best five card hand.

This brings us to the question of Power Points. Thus far, all AB's have used PP's. That doesn't mean we need to here. Rather than make the huckster spend PP's, let's map the PP cost of each spell to the hand rank required for a successful cast:

PP's Hand Rank
1 Ace High
2 Pair
3 Jacks or Better
4 Two Pair
5 Three of a Kind
6 Straight
7 Flush
8 Full House
9 Four of a Kind
10 Straight Flush
11 Royal Flush
12 Dead Man's Hand

The hand rank the huckster draws determines how many PP's he wins off the manitou to power his spell, both to pay the initial cost and to maintain it. During the round the power would elapse due to lack of PP's, the huckster may wager against the manitou again for additional PP's to maintain the spell, though he may never draw more than one hand to pay the initial cost. (I'm aware this puts Greater Healing out of reach, but I probably wouldn't give this to hucksters anyway.)
Further, the target suffers half the Power Points gained (rounded down) as a negative modifier to his roll to resist any spell that is normally opposed, with the resist difficulty equal to the usual 4. IOW, if the huckster draws Three of a Kind to Puppet someone, the target must make a Spirit roll (- (5/2=2) to resist.

Penalties
If the huckster would normally suffer any penalties to his skill roll (such as from Wounds, range modifiers for spells like Bolt, etc), the Power Points he gains are reduced by the total penalty. So a huckster who is bolting a target at medium range (-2) and has a single wound himself (-1) gains 3 less Power Points.

Backlash
And this is where the huckster pays for his potentially unlimited Power Points. Anytime the huckster draws a Joker when casting a hex, he suffers backlash. He draws the next card off the deck and suffers damage equal to the card draw + his Rank, and if he draws a Joker when determining damage, he instead gains a dementia (rolled on the Mad Scientist Table). If a huckster draws 2 Jokers in his hand, he suffers this damage twice (as two separate hits). This damage ignores non-magical armor. If this damage is enough to Incapacitate the huckster, he was overpowered by the Manitou and his spell fizzles.

Failure
If a huckster cannot draw the hand required to generate enough PP's to cast the spell, it simply fizzles.

Raises
Most powers generate an improved effect if the caster rolls a raise. Since we're not using dice, the huckster may voluntarily "raise the bet." He declares he is doing so in advance. The Power Points he gains from his hand rank are reduced by 2, but he is considered to have rolled a raise on his casting roll.

Procedure
The steps are as follows:

1. Declare Power to be cast.
2. Declare targets.
3. Raise the Bet (optional)
4. Draw Hand
5. Draw additional cards equal to Rank.
6. Discard and Redraw cards equal to skill.
7. Determine if available PP is sufficient to cast spell.
8. Inflict effects.
9. Suffer backlash effects, if any.
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Mort
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BDFlory wrote:

First things first: we're going to determine which elements we can keep from the classic system, and what we need to ditch to make things F!F!F! As a rule, it's best to strip actions down to a single die roll, though in this case, we want the card draw mechanic to reflect the original flavor of the AB. So, instead, we'll make it a single hand draw, with no dice required.

Very Happy


BDFlory wrote:

PP's Hand Rank
1 Ace High
2 Pair
3 Jacks or Better
4 Two Pair
5 Three of a Kind
6 Straight
7 Flush
8 Full House
9 Four of a Kind
10 Straight Flush
11 Royal Flush
12 Dead Man's Hand


In general this version looks good & is probably my favourite of the lot.

My only thoughts are the power points are possibly a little too harsh (especially with the wound penalties) & is the joker a wild card or a dead card ( does it have no value as a card)?
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BDFlory
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Mort"]
BDFlory wrote:

My only thoughts are the power points are possibly a little too harsh (especially with the wound penalties) & is the joker a wild card or a dead card ( does it have no value as a card)?


Wild card.
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Leitchy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dunno, BD...it seeme to me it's a lot more to learn than the others. It just doesn't seem as fast as (eg) my version.

But, that said, it's certainly another viable alternative.

Quote:
During the round the power would elapse due to lack of PP's, the huckster may wager against the manitou again for additional PP's to maintain the spell, though he may never draw more than one hand to pay the initial cost.

not sure I understand this; are you saying the huckster draws another complete hand? As in (in your example) another 6 cards, plus redraw up to 2 cards?? And that this is just to generate power points to maintain the spell??
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Hi PHi
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 11, 2004 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leitchy wrote:
I dunno, BD...it seeme to me it's a lot more to learn than the others. It just doesn't seem as fast as (eg) my version.

But, that said, it's certainly another viable alternative.

Quote:
During the round the power would elapse due to lack of PP's, the huckster may wager against the manitou again for additional PP's to maintain the spell, though he may never draw more than one hand to pay the initial cost.

not sure I understand this; are you saying the huckster draws another complete hand? As in (in your example) another 6 cards, plus redraw up to 2 cards?? And that this is just to generate power points to maintain the spell??


Instead of redoing the casting process to maintain a spell, why not just a simple game of high card with the Manitou (Marshal)? The spell is maintained if the Huckster wins, he suffers minor backlash (shaken?) if he looses.
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Mort
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PHi wrote:

Instead of redoing the casting process to maintain a spell, why not just a simple game of high card with the Manitou (Marshal)? The spell is maintained if the Huckster wins, he suffers minor backlash (shaken?) if he looses.


I assumed this was what BD meant - on rereading it's obvious he didn't. Another hand each turn really slows the game down.

Go with the Highcard draw
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, I *intended* it to be that your initial Power Points can be used to maintain the spell. On the action they run out, you may "cast" the spell again for additional PP's, but you don't need to pay the initial activation out of that pool, since you're only maintaining it.

Alternately, however, I can see an argument for only allowing the huckster to pay maintenance costs out of the initial Power Points gained.

As for the high card thing...I'd vote no. That leaves a little *too* much to blind chance. A Novice huckster would be just as likely to maintain a spell as a Legendary one.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BDFlory wrote:

As for the high card thing...I'd vote no. That leaves a little *too* much to blind chance. A Novice huckster would be just as likely to maintain a spell as a Legendary one.


Eh (shrug). Demons are fickle Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 13, 2004 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BDFlory wrote:
As for the high card thing...I'd vote no. That leaves a little *too* much to blind chance. A Novice huckster would be just as likely to maintain a spell as a Legendary one.


Good point. To handle this, you could let each rank above Novice the Huckster has reached, bump him up one card from the one he drew.

So, if a Veteran Huckster draws a 10, his draw would actually be a Queen, and a Legendary Huckster would be bumped to an Ace.

Too arbitrary?
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PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

question: under your suggested rules, how would you handle multiple actions? Such as a guy who wants to cast two spells every round?

Allen
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