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Alternate Damage System

 
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Jeffrywith1e
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:33 am    Post subject: Alternate Damage System Reply with quote

I've been thinking about trying to make an alternate system for damage. I'm sure there's been tons of home-brew rules about this, so if this flavor has been tried before, I'd like to see what has already been tried.

What I have in mind is basically taking the damage system that exists in the Doctor Who: Adventures in Time and Space and now Primeval RPG and porting it into Savage Worlds.

What that might look like is when a character takes damage, the "hit points" are subtracted from the Attributes. As the Attributes go lower because of damage, the skills and abilities that rely on the attribute naturally suffer, temporarily.

What I really like about this is that it goes beyond just physical damage from a fight or bodily harm, this also works for mental "damage", or suffering Spirit or Vigor.

While in the Doctor Who RPG these attribute equivalents are stats like more traditional RPGs and one would subtract the damage from that stat, here in Savage Worlds I wonder if we could use the Die steps for the damage.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

By this model, each Injury imposes a penalty on some of your Traits and may reduce some of your Derived Traits (Toughness and Parry).
Under the standard model, each Wound imposes a penalty on all Traits and reduces one of your Derived Traits (Pace).

Other than complicating the math (forcing use to recompute Parry and Toughness after each damaging attack), your suggestion makes injuries less injurious. Which might be a good thing for a given group or campaign. That depends upon your goals.


What are your goals?
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Jeffrywith1e
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I needed this kind of other perspective. Hadn't considered the derived Traits. I figured this damage system would be more forgiving than the RAW, and that could be good for some campaigns.

My goal, I guess, was to find a simple and elegant way to track physical damage as well as social or mental damage, universally. Just as it's done in the DW game.

I also figured Savage Worlds' Die Step mechanics could represent this well.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeffrywith1e wrote:
My goal, I guess, was to find a simple and elegant way to track physical damage as well as social or mental damage, universally.

Bizarrely, the best system I've played in that did that was 4E D&D - HP are your resistance to everything. Your condition at the end of the encounter depends upon what kind of conflict you were in.


Social conflict can leave you embarrassed, dropped in status, or angry enough to start physical conflict. It doesn't generally leave you lying in bed for weeks or months, trying to get better. Wink
That's why I think the Social Conflict rules are one of the best compromises between the way Savage Worlds works and social conflicts as a game mechanic.

Mental damage can occur from external stresses (mostly fear), internal stresses (stuff we create for ourselves, usually based upon work, love, or finances), or as a side effect of physical damage (brain damage). The Fear rules cover the first, and the Injury Table covers the last. The second can be covered by hindrances, but those don't normally happen during game play.
If you want to worry about that second source, I'd have a Smarts check to deal with major stresses. Raise, deal flawlessly. Success, a level of fatigue but otherwise okay. Failure, fatigue and a temporary hindrance. 1 or less / Critical failure (choose based upon tone of game), fatigue and a permanent hindrance (generally Quirks, Delusions, or other mental hindrances).


Or you can go forth with your current idea. It can do what you want, but I wouldn't recommend it for all campaigns. Only for those games that need a lower body count, and that emphasize fast talking at least as much as combat. Settings a lot like Dr. Who. Cool


Good luck!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Re: Alternate Damage System Reply with quote

Jeffrywith1e wrote:
What that might look like is when a character takes damage, the "hit points" are subtracted from the Attributes. As the Attributes go lower because of damage, the skills and abilities that rely on the attribute naturally suffer, temporarily.


As a point of interest, this concept did not originate in the Doctor Who RPG. You can find it as far back as the original liitle black books edition of Traveller.
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bigmac133
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys i have been thinking of an HP system for Savage worlds, here is what i have so far,

HP is a derived statistic = to (8xVigor die type)-(2xAgility die type)+spirit and strength roll, this means that people will have different HP values Even if they have similar stats.
EG Mr Examples stats are
agility = D6
smarts = D4
strength = D4
spirit = D8
Vigor = D8
He rolls a 7 for spirit and a 3 for strength during HP generation
so Mr Example has (8 x 8)-(2 x 6) + 7 + 3
64 - 12 + 10
so over all Mr Example has 62 HP, a hit is still required to roll for damage and AP affects Base toughness as well as armor. The toughness of a wildcard or an extra is deducted from the damage rolled.
EG Mr Example wears Leather armor and has an overall toughness of 7(1) and is hit by a huge AP3 Great axe from an ogre so he takes str (D12) + D8 damage which totals to a horrifying 18. However after the AP3 is deducted from his toughness he is still toughness 4 which means he takes the overall damage of 14

what do you guys think?
let me know.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigmac, I think the formula is overly complex, the result is no faster than the core rules, and that Shaken seems to have vanished completely from damage. All of which I disapprove of.

I also think that your example was excellent, your presentation mostly solid (you left out why you invented these rules), and that you'll be a great contribution to these forums.

Welcome!
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bigmac133
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Valhalla,
i invented these rules because i will be running an elder scrolls savage worlds campaign using a heavily modded rule set. Smile

( http://journeymangm.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/The-Elder-Scrolls-for-Savage-Worlds-v1-2.pdf )
Here is the Link, i have made changes to this but this is where i started
i wanted to be able to reflect the difference between the races (an orc and a wood elf) more effectively, as for shaken i was thinking of using a spirit roll at -the amount of HP you lost, on a fail you are shaken, fatigue would still work in the same way with the -1 or 2 and then down, and losing hp could result in overall - to rolls so at 1/2 hp your at -1 for everything and at 1/4 hp you are at - 2, this means the game will still play similarly but ill be ably to run an elder scrolls game more easily (IMO).


Last edited by bigmac133 on Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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bigmac133
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:33 am    Post subject: SHAKEN Reply with quote

hi, i have given some thought to shaken so just tack this on tho my last example...


After taking the damage, Mr Example rolls his spirit die at -14 (equal to the amount of HP lost in the previous attack) on a success (unlikely) he will not be shaken. on a failure he will be shaken but on a raise he gets an adrenalin rush and is at +1 for pace and +1 for strength related rolls in the next turn.

(i like this, but then again i came up with it)
what do you think Smile
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigmac133 wrote:
so over all Mr Example has 62 HP, a hit is still required to roll for damage and AP affects Base toughness as well as armor. The toughness of a wildcard or an extra is deducted from the damage rolled.
EG Mr Example wears Leather armor and has an overall toughness of 7(1) and is hit by a huge AP3 Great axe from an ogre so he takes str (D12) + D8 damage which totals to a horrifying 18. However after the AP3 is deducted from his toughness he is still toughness 4 which means he takes the overall damage of 14


Outside of the whole formula issue, why is AP subtracted from Armor and base Toughness?

In the end, it makes AP pointless, since AP become nothing more than a flat bonus to damage only handled with extra complexity. Meaning "AP3" is exactly the same as +3 damage by this system only adding an extra step to resolution.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: SHAKEN Reply with quote

bigmac133 wrote:
After taking the damage, Mr Example rolls his spirit die at -14 (equal to the amount of HP lost in the previous attack) on a success (unlikely) he will not be shaken. on a failure he will be shaken but on a raise he gets an adrenalin rush and is at +1 for pace and +1 for strength related rolls in the next turn.

(i like this, but then again i came up with it)
what do you think Smile


Well, it adds a roll that is unlikely to succeed to every single successful damage roll in a combat. That's going to slow down combat significantly for little if any return on the "investment."

Why not just say they are Shaken if damage equals or exceeds Toughness, and then let them make the existing Spirit roll to recover (or spend a Benny).
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigmac133 wrote:
i wanted to be able to reflect the difference between the races (an orc and a wood elf) more effectively,

Then, I'm sad to say, you have failed. My d12 Vigor wood elf sprinter, with his d6 Strength & Agility (d4 Spirit), has a minimum of 86 health. My d8 Vigor & Agility orc warrior (d6 Strength & Spirit) has a minimum of 50 health. So, the Bosmer with no Fighting skill, the Yellow hindrance, and the Fleet-footed edge is much tougher than the Orc warrior with Nerves of Steel and Trademark Weapon. Confused
Even more bizarrely, you're punishing characters for advancing their Agility (one of the prime stats for a Warrior, since it governs all the weapon skills and a third of the combat edges). Each new die type drops their HP by 4. #1eek13
The elimination of soaking wounds is something I have mixed feelings about, but I'll let it slide for that "mixed feelings" reason.


I get the feeling you haven't played Savage Worlds much, if at all. If that is the case, I strongly encourage you to play the game as written for a bit. A few one-shots should suffice. It's an amazingly complex, deep, and smooth system - even after all this time, I'm still boggled by how connected some parts of it are, and how well the whole thing works. The ability to give your players 20+ allies for an upcoming fight, while your run the 60 man enemy horde, is worthy of praise all by itself.
If you have played Savage Worlds a lot, I'd strongly suggest play testing a few of your rules changes before you run a campaign. Best to smooth out the rough parts before you get too far into the campaign.


Good luck!

P.S. I agree with Clint, regarding the Shaken thing.
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bigmac133
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Clint - hmmm you know what i havent thought of it that way... it does render AP kind of pointless. Surprised

@ valhalla - all fair points, however i am playing a modded rule set, i was gonna have two seperate fighting skills (one handed and two handed) one handed would still run off agility but two handed would run off of strength, i have played a fair amount of savage worlds but ill be the first to admit its the newest system to me of all that i have played. anyways im probably going to run this for one session and tweak it/scrap it but its more of a fun idea than anything else Smile
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the goal is to distinguish elves from orcs, keep in mind that just a 1 or 2 point difference in SW can make a huge difference in play even if it doesn't seem like much on paper. It's just the nature of the system.

Meaning rather than create an entirely new HP damage system that will dramatically affect game play for everyone to handle just some of the races, change those races.

Give all the Elves a -1 to Toughness and then something to balance that like the Quick Edge for free.

Then I'd bet the Orcs already start with a d6 in Vigor, so increase that to a d8 with the option to increase it normally to a d12+1/d12+2. That's only 1 more point for them which gives them an additional +1 to Toughness in addition to a better roll to Soak damage plus the ability to raise their Vigor higher than any other race.

It should be fairly easy to get another racial ability or switch things around to pay for that extra point.

So now, Elves and Orcs have a base 2 points of Toughness difference between them with the option for Orcs to raise their Vigor up to d12+1/d12+2 through normal advancements. That should make them significantly different as far as taking damage is concerned.

Something to consider anyway.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheers clint ill probably use something like that, also i was looking to distinguish between all races rather than just elves and orcs, i used them as an example because they are steriotypically different even though an orc in TES is a species of elf Smile
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigmac133 wrote:
i was gonna have two seperate fighting skills (one handed and two handed) one handed would still run off agility but two handed would run off of strength,

I figured there were a ton of big changes you weren't telling us about. Smile

My other issue with this proposed system is that it will make a fight take a really, really long time. 3d6 is "killing damage" in savage worlds, capable of dropping man-equivalents in a single hit; in your new system, it's barely a flesh wound.
Average Man has a minimum of 38 hp, toughness 5; 3d6 averages 12.6 damage (16.8 with a raise); which means that an average shotgun blast to the chest will only do 7 or 11 damage to the Average Man - it will take one amazingly good damage roll (43+) or repeated shotgun blasts to the chest to kill Average Man. That's ... not the kind of lethality that The Elder Scrolls uses for it's flavor text (it is how the video games work, but that's a conceit of computer game expectations).
The same is even more true for longsword damage (2d8, +2 with Wild Attack). At an average of 10.2 / 12.2 damage, fights will take a long time, even against Extras. Even the gigantic two-handers are not killing people in a single blow (2d10 average 12.1 damage, 14.1 with Wild Attack, plus 4.2 for a Raise). Even Average Man can expect to take two of those before he's in serious trouble.
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bigmac133
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: ok... So how about this? Reply with quote

Right, i see where your coming from, however the lethality is something i dont particularly want in this as i kinda want a nice balance between survivability for the PCs but i still want them to feel as though they are in danger, so after taking into account what you said about combat taking many a year here is the revised equations for generating HP

wildcard = (5 x vigor) + str roll + spi roll

extra = 3 x vigor

i think this is a lot more lethal but still gives the PCs the sense of security also as for my last suggestion for shaken wasnt so bad, it was just unlikely to work in the example situation, because when using the RAW system the PCs are shaken before they begin taking damage so im not really sure how to represent that in a HP system, now if you could for one moment forget the RAW system ever existed, how would you represent it?

also here is a list of the races from the game, please suggest any tweaks, i have mainly taken them from here
http://journeymangm.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/The-Elder-Scrolls-for-Savage-Worlds-v1-2.pdf

but have changed a few things about, once again looking for any sort of suggestions as i am sure some are OP compared to others. also remember that all races start with 10 power points (magicka) unless stated otherwise but will need to spend skill points to use anything other than novice level spells at D4 - 2

Argonian
imune to disease... 50% chance to resist poison... free D6 in swimming and can swm at a pace = to swiming die... can breathe under water... histskin regenerate d4 HP a turn untill it is full.

Altimer (high elf)
Slight build (-1 to toughness)... - 4 to resistance of fire frost and shock... 10 extra magicka at the start (20 power points), have a free D6 in any magic skill (alteration, conjuration, destruction, mysticysm, illusion or restoration)... have the arrogant hindrance.

Bosmer (wood elf)
comand animal (has the beast friend power)... free D6 in archery... marksman edge... tiny (-2 to toughness)... 25% chance to resist poison

Breton (half elf)
dragonskin (arcane resistance edge and gets D4-1 power points added to the current supply when hit by a spell)... odd (due to their parentage bretons are weird people and must take one of the following - quirk, stubborn, minor habit, minor delusional or big mouth)... free D6 in spirit... free d6 in conjuration

Dark elf (dunmer)
free D6 in destruction... summon ancestor guardian... mean hindrance... racial hatred (nords)

Imperial
voice of the emperor = +2 to charisma... privalaged upbringing = imperials start with 6d20 more gold

Khajiit
claws to str+d4 damage and add +2 to climbing... khajiit do not suffer penalties for darkness... +1 to notice checks (keen senses)... free d6 in agility... all swiming checks are done at -2 or -3 if a spirit roll is failed before the swim... free d6 in stealth (soft paws)... +1 to intimidate...
skooma addiction (major habit skooma) or equivilant hindrance.

Nord
hardy (free D6 in vigor)... battlecry (large burst template centered on shouter, enemies under it must pass a spirit check or run their full pace and running die away in their next action, all friendlies get +1 on the next action... 50% resistance to cold... hatred (elves except orcs)... free D6 in two handed.

Orc (Orsimer)
free D6 in strength... free D6 in either one handed or two handed... ugly hindrance... berzerk edge (in addition to this they deal and extra D6 damage and only take half damage for the turn after they go bezerk)... loyal hindrance... start with only 5 magicka... each orc is given an axe as a coming of age present(axes are half price for orcs during character creation).

Redguard
free D6 in agility... free D6 in one handed... adrenalin rush once per session (count as being dealt a joker in the next round)... poison resistance 33%

and here are the list of skills

AGILITY SKILLS
acrobatics - used to jump about and flip, can be used in combat to avoid hits if no action was taken in the previous turn.

boating - in book

driving - removed

fighting - onehanded

lockpicking - in book

piloting - removed

riding - same as book (SAB)

shooting - replaced with archery

stealth - changed to sneak

swimming - SAB

throwing - SAB

SMARTS SKILLS

gambling - SAB

healing - restores HP = to healing dice roll

investigation - SAB

knowledge - SAB

notice - SAB

repair - SAB

conjuration - roll on the dice the creatures size is used as a modifier, success = summon up to 3 inches away and normal vigor... Raise = summon up to 6 inches away increase vigor by 1 die type... and failure = not summoned... natural 1 on the conjuration die means the creature attacks the caster and a benny can be spent to re-roll.

illusion - roll opposed roll vs targets smarts, success the spell works normally... raise = the spell works for double its stated duration... fail = no spell cast... Natural 1 = caster is shaken until a smarts roll is passed.

Mysticysm = same as illusion.

streetwise = used to find "dodgy" people around town (skooma dealers)

survival = used to find alchemy ingredients

taunt = SAB

tracking = SAB (can be used to find specific creatures in the wilderness)


SPIRIT SKILLS

speechcraft - (combined persuade, intimidate and bluff)

Guts - starts same as your spirit dice rather than D4 - 2 so skill points dont really have to be spent on this as much

faith - choose one of the 9 divines to follow and this shows how much they bless you (still working on the technicalities).

Restoration - success = spell heals normal amount of hp... raise = heals extra equal to a restoration dice roll (D8 in restoration rolls an additional D8)

alteration - success = normal duration... raise = double duration or double power... fail = doesnt work... natural 1 = SUGGESTIONS PLEASE

destruction - success = normal damage... raise = + destruction Die roll in damage... fail = not worked... natural 1 = shaken and loose 1/2 of the damage roll in HP

STRENGTH SKILLS

fighting - (two handed)

climbing - SAB

thats pretty much all i got so far, will be doing a 1 session thing in a week or so to see how it runs but in the meantime please suggest any changes

Cheers :)
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: ok... So how about this? Reply with quote

Wow! Lots to cover.
bigmac133 wrote:
however the lethality is something i dont particularly want in this as i kinda want a nice balance between survivability for the PCs but i still want them to feel as though they are in danger,

In my experience, two setting rules do that very well. 1) Heroes Never Die, in which heroes can only be killed when a dastardly villain executes them or they make a heroic sacrifice to save others; 2) Heroes Are Hard To Kill, where PCs ignore Wound Penalties when rolling for Incapacitation, essentially giving all the PCs the Hard to Kill edge for free.
If PC survivability is your only concern then simply changing the Incapacitation table is probably the thing to do. The SWEX table is already extremely generous, and giving everyone Hard to Kill can turn them into Hulk-like unstoppable killing machines.

I've really come to hate hit points, or as I think of them "the math of death". At a certain point in the fight, the enemy will kill you; Toughness based systems, either Savage Worlds or the toughness save used in Green Ronin products, allow you to survive even when you should die. That is both legend-making and heroic. Hit points ignore all that, instead requiring foes to either miss on their attacks or not bypass your damage reduction.

bigmac13 wrote:
extra = 3 x vigor

Yeesh! The average Extra has 18 hit points and a toughness of 5. That is at least 23 damage to one-shot them. Surprised
You really want Extras to be able to swarm your PCs and butcher them, don't you?

bigmac13 wrote:
if you could for one moment forget the RAW system ever existed, how would you represent [Shaken]?

If a foe is Shaken, his Toughness does not reduce HP loss.
If a damaging attack equals or exceeds Toughness then foe is also Shaken.


To save time, my thoughts on Savage Elder Scrolls races can be found in the thread that created your source document. http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35463
Extra caveat - I feel that you are trying way too hard to import mechanics directly from the video game, and ignoring all the benefits of using Savage Worlds as the core rules for your setting. Basically, I think you're headed for a train wreck because you're "using the wrong map". I mention this because I would be remiss in my claims of assistance if I didn't mention it.
bigmac13 wrote:
Argonian

Why 50% poison resistance? Wouldn't it better fit the system to give them a massive bonus (+4) to rolls to resist poison?
Lots of love here. They're at least a +5 race, probably a lot higher.

bigmac13 wrote:
Altimer (high elf)

Weak. Really Weak. Weaker than a Core Rules human. These guys are +0 at the best.

bigmac13 wrote:
Bosmer (wood elf)

Again with the percentages. Why not just a +1 or +2 to resist poison?
So, your Bosmer are the size of a house cat? That's ... really strange but good to know.
Overall, at +2 race.

bigmac13 wrote:
Breton (half elf)

Lots of love. They combine the suck of the Altmer with the awesomeness of Godzilla to come out merely super-human. A +5 race with a lot of goodies.

bigmac13 wrote:
Dark elf (dunmer)

A +1 race. Interesting. What the heck does "summon ancestor guardian" do? What it does in the linked document?

bigmac13 wrote:
Imperial

Spiffy, but not powerful. A +2 race (free edge, very minor increase in starting wealth - worth less than 1 hindrance/character creation point).

bigmac13 wrote:
Khajiit

Why did you not simply give them Minor/Major Phobia (water)?
About 7 points of benefits with 3 or 4 points of drawbacks for a total +3 or +4 race. Strong.

bigmac13 wrote:
Nord

Wow, I thought previous races were strong. Nords are where it is at! At least a +8 race, and Zadmar would tell me they were a +10 race.
So brokenly awesome. Vikings for the win!

bigmac13 wrote:
Orc (Orsimer)

They total a +1 race, but they are the non-magic butt kickers. Berserk is the strongest combat edge in the game, and they get an improved version of it, on top of all their other face-wrecking goodies.
I find it really strange that Orcs don't want to date each other. The only reason two orcs end up together is because they settle.

bigmac13 wrote:
Redguard

Percentages; again. Sigh Really strong, but solidly so. A simple +5 race, kicking every Imperial in the face until the Empire never should have formed.

bigmac13 wrote:
and here are the list of skills

You've added 8 skills, deleted wagon driving (I guess no one ever needs to drive a wagon in a crisis), and turned the primary reason Agility ever gets rolled into a skill. You also renamed a few skills, though it sounds like you castrated Streetwise, and made it a fairly worthless skill for anyone that is not a skooma dealer.
Oh, and are using Guts, implying that you're using the SWEX instead of Deluxe (where Guts was deleted and Fear is resisted with a Spirit roll, and the Brave edge exists). I'd strongly recommend deleting guts and just using Spirit checks to resist fear - it fits the setting and your obvious inclinations quite well.


... Wow, that's a lot of post. I hope some of it helps. Good luck.
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