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Combat edges: New move, or improved Move?

 
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robert4818
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: Combat edges: New move, or improved Move? Reply with quote

I love picking up edges. What I don't like are edges that are required for me to pick up a new ability, especially in combat.

Certain things make sense, ones that require a healthy dose of training (such as Martial Arts), but for many things, I don't think its productive to have an edge that gives you a new ability like that.

The two examples from the deluxe book that stick out to me are Counter Attack, and Sweep.

Counter attack makes the assumption that if your not trained, you can't take advantage of a failed attack. To me, its just silly. I would much rather see counter attack be a normal in-game option that occurs on an opponents skill roll of 1 (regardless of wild die) that can be improved through edges such as counter attack and improved counter attack.

Sweep as well. Why is it "impossible" for me to swing my weapon in an arc around me without picking up the edge? Instead, I believe the sweep edge should simply make you more effective at attempting this manuever. Leave sweep as is, but give a default -4 if tried without the edge.


The concept here is that edges should generally make you better at something, not give you a brand new ability, unless that ability is something that needs special training for.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Combat edges: New move, or improved Move? Reply with quote

robert4818 wrote:
Sweep as well. Why is it "impossible" for me to swing my weapon in an arc around me without picking up the edge? Instead, I believe the sweep edge should simply make you more effective at attempting this manuever. Leave sweep as is, but give a default -4 if tried without the edge.

I think we call that "Rapid Attack, melee".
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Combat edges: New move, or improved Move? Reply with quote

robert4818 wrote:
Counter attack makes the assumption that if your not trained, you can't take advantage of a failed attack. To me, its just silly. I would much rather see counter attack be a normal in-game option that occurs on an opponents skill roll of 1 (regardless of wild die) that can be improved through edges such as counter attack and improved counter attack.

You can always make it a setting rule. Personally I'd rather not have it available to everyone, as it would slow down combat, but I do use the High Adventure setting rule in my games (spend a benny to temporarily gain a combat edge).

robert4818 wrote:
Sweep as well. Why is it "impossible" for me to swing my weapon in an arc around me without picking up the edge? Instead, I believe the sweep edge should simply make you more effective at attempting this manuever. Leave sweep as is, but give a default -4 if tried without the edge.

I allow anyone to use Sweep or Frenzy, but without the appropriate edge they suffer -2 Parry until their next turn (the same as Wild Attack).
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Lord Lance
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Joined: 23 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Combat edges: New move, or improved Move? Reply with quote

robert4818 wrote:
Why is it "impossible" for me to swing my weapon in an arc around me without picking up the edge?

My answers to my players keep telling me this thing is:

Because if you are not trained, you have so few chances to hit your enemies, that you could simply not to roll the dice, and storytell "I try to hit all those enemies with my battleaxe, but with a clumsy all-around movement I miss them all together". Mr. Green

This answer is made to avoid to roll tons of dice on actions with almost no chances to success.

If a trained character has -4 to hit with the Sweep move, and a VERY trained character has -2, then a non-trained one should have -6!!!
The chances to hit enemies around you with Parry 6 (if you are "untrained") is between 4% and 12% (from d4 ability to d12 ability, wildcard). Not a % on which I'd count on too much! Mr. Green
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islan
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because every game needs some basic limits and options to break those limits. Being only able to attack once a turn and with one target (unless in the presence of an exception) is just a rule we gotta accept for the fun of the game.
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JCDenton28
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Joined: 01 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could borrow a page from True 20, and for the cost of a Benny allow a player to use any edge they qualify for, for one turn.

Want to sweep? Pay a benny

Want to counter attack, pay a benny?

Want to stay alive, pay a benny for combat reflexes for a turn, and another benny on the vigor roll, etc.....
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Lord Stone
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As with any roleplaying game the system is an abstraction of what would really happen if these characters were real and fighting. To start off with the core mechanic of combat: rounds. A round is 6 seconds and the default modus operandi of the system is 1 action a round. Just imagine a little bar brawl and try to fit everything that might happen in 6 seconds in a SW combat round, using characters with a low fighting skill (probably d4) and no fighting edges... because this is I think an adequate representation of the average bar brawler.

My bet is that either you are going to fail even being able to represent it... or you have to make choices that are so inefficient that they would never work in the game.

Why is that? It is because that one Action you take during a SW round is an abstraction of 6 seconds fighting and exchanging blows.

In that light, the Counterattack and Sweep Edges represent advanced fighting techniques taking advantage of openings non-trained fighters would in general miss.

Mechanically it is not impossible to take advantage of missed attacks, or sweep multiple opponents, without these Edges. To take advantage of a missed attack, ready yourself or naturally have a later initiative than your opponent. Then describe an attack taking advantage of the last thing your opponent did. There, done. You might even earn a bennie for sweet roleplaying. You might even ready and try to interrupt your opponent's attack; try to get him Shaken before he can resolve his attack.

The non-trained Sweep is even simpler. It is called a Rapid Attack. Read it; it even says in the description: "A wild swing of the blade" is one of the possible trappings. The penalties are high though, so combine it with a Wild Attack to truly represent a wild untrained sweep.

The Counterattack and Sweep Edges simply give you a better, generally more effective method of doing these things in a mechanic sense... which in the simulation means your character just got much and much better at it.
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Ryche
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Joined: 10 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCDenton28 wrote:
You could borrow a page from True 20, and for the cost of a Benny allow a player to use any edge they qualify for, for one turn.

Or just allow the High Adventure Setting rule from SWD, which does the same thing (except you only have to meet the rank and edge requirements). Wink
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JCDenton28
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Joined: 01 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile

I don't have the core rules yet, but great to know that is in there.

I am running a quick Pulp adventure with guests over Thanksgiving and that will fit nicely.
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ogbendog
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Joined: 29 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frenzy attack is -2 for an extra attack and is an edge

rapid attack is -6 for an extra attack

House rule: You can do any edge move, with an extra -4 to hit for all your attacks.

So if, for example, you do a First strike at -4, your normal attack is also at -4.
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