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Axe ($200) versus Axe, Throwing ($75)-why buy a normal axe?

 
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iamfanboy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Axe ($200) versus Axe, Throwing ($75)-why buy a normal axe? Reply with quote

So I'm making precons for a fantasy adventure I may be running next weekend and as I'm outfitting the Florentine/Two-Fisted/Ambidextrous warrior I notice that Axe, Throwing is listed as a Str+d6 for $75, but a normal, non-throwing Axe is listed at $200 for the same damage ratio. With common sense (and searching the forum!) it's obvious that a throwing weapon can be used in melee, so why the price discrepancy?

This is the first time I've run a fantasy game with Savage Worlds (usually it's Deadlands all the way!) so maybe there's some errata I'm missing?

Also, the damage/price ratios are kinda weird. A flail is the same damage/price as a short sword/axe, but gives an additional ability on top of the other weapons.

Hrum. Would it be unbalancing if I gave all the swords Parry +1 and the normal ($200) axe AP1?
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Axe ($200) versus Axe, Throwing ($75)-why buy a normal a Reply with quote

iamfanboy wrote:
Also, the damage/price ratios are kinda weird. A flail is the same damage/price as a short sword/axe, but gives an additional ability on top of the other weapons.

The flail is also twice as heavy as the shortsword, which in turn is twice as heavy as the axe. That weight difference could be used for better armour or a shield. However it does raise the question of why you'd use a shortsword rather than an axe. The usual answer would be "the shortsword fits the character concept", but personally that never sat too well with me.

iamfanboy wrote:
Hrum. Would it be unbalancing if I gave all the swords Parry +1 and the normal ($200) axe AP1?

+1 Parry is significantly better than AP 1. If you're worried about weapon balance, I'd recommend reading this thread.
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Snate56
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were it my game, I would make the Throwing Axe Str+d4.



SteveN
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Cutter XXIII
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A regular axe can also cut down trees ... among other non-combat, practical tasks.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Axe ($200) versus Axe, Throwing ($75)-why buy a normal a Reply with quote

iamfanboy wrote:
So I'm making precons for a fantasy adventure I may be running next weekend and as I'm outfitting the Florentine/Two-Fisted/Ambidextrous warrior I notice that Axe, Throwing is listed as a Str+d6 for $75, but a normal, non-throwing Axe is listed at $200 for the same damage ratio. With common sense (and searching the forum!) it's obvious that a throwing weapon can be used in melee, so why the price discrepancy?

This is the first time I've run a fantasy game with Savage Worlds (usually it's Deadlands all the way!) so maybe there's some errata I'm missing?


Eh, kind of, in only one aspect, the throwing axe. It's kind of a special item, but you can balance the two axes and keep them separate by giving the throwing axe a -1 Parry (to reflect being more designed for throwing than melee).

Otherwise, the basic axe does weigh less and cost the same as a short sword, so it looks superior overall, but the sword is metal and the axe is primarily wood, so as far as breaking them (see the section on Breaking Things), the sword would have a Toughness of 10 where the axe would likely be more like a 6 or 7 (where a small wooden shield that weighs 4x the axe has an 8 Toughness).

It's not inherent in their stats, but overall in the rules, the short sword does have an advantage.

iamfanboy wrote:
Also, the damage/price ratios are kinda weird. A flail is the same damage/price as a short sword/axe, but gives an additional ability on top of the other weapons.


As noted above, the flail weigh 8 lbs. to the short sword's 4. That's actually pretty huge. When a d6 Strength provides a 30 lbs. Load Limit, that's the difference between 13.33% of your carrying capacity and 26.67%.

iamfanboy wrote:
Hrum. Would it be unbalancing if I gave all the swords Parry +1 and the normal ($200) axe AP1?


Yeah, it kind of would. As long as all the basic rules are applied (Load Limits and breaking things), the weapons should be pretty balanced overall.
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The_13th_Doctor
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Traditionally, axes that were weighted for throwing would make very poor melee weapons. Either the weight ration is not right for hand use, or sometimes there is a curvature to the handle which makes it awkward to use in melee. Certainly, these are not mentioned in the book, but I always apply a -1 penalty to the fighting roll of any weapon that is called 'Throwing' if it is used in melee.
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iamfanboy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_13th_Doctor wrote:
Traditionally, axes that were weighted for throwing would make very poor melee weapons. Either the weight ration is not right for hand use, or sometimes there is a curvature to the handle which makes it awkward to use in melee. Certainly, these are not mentioned in the book, but I always apply a -1 penalty to the fighting roll of any weapon that is called 'Throwing' if it is used in melee.

You might be thinking of the francisca, the Viking throwing axe, which with its curved head wasn't really great at close combat - but other designs like the tomahawk were equally useful in melee or throwing. And it's not hard to get good at throwing a normal hatchet, which can definitely split a skull. The 'spear' under both ranged and melee tables has the same weight/damage/cost/everything, which indicated to me that they're the same weapon, versus one being a javelin... but it is your game.

OK. I wasn't really concerned about the encumbrance rules, because this is a one-off adventure that I'm literally going to run during four hour van trip, but the balance is more evident now.
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Blogotron
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A military purposes axe is not a woodsman's axe. They would be terrible for felling trees. You'd likely ruin the blade.

Counter intuitively, a throwing-axe is very good for chopping down small diameter trees.

Throwing Axes (excepting things like the African throwing axes and hurlbats) are also far better at parrying than a Military axe. i am thinking Tomahawks and hatchets.

Military style axes were rightfully feared by the Romans when the Northern Barbarians wielded them in combat. I'd just give them a Bump in Damage.

Great Axes are more like what the Huscarls of the Danelaw used.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlSlhyFXNGU‎
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