Username:    Password:      Remember me       
Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
Discussion Forum for PEG/GWG
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Mounted Combat

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW General Chat & Game Stories
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mgtzx
Novice


Joined: 08 May 2013
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Mounted Combat Reply with quote

We'll be getting into some mounted combat for the first time soon, and I'm trying to work out how it works in my head and preemptively answer questions that might come up.

Fighting while Riding is handled by using the lower of the two skill dice, and Shooting while Riding is covered by Unstable Platform. I've also gathered that Riding typically requires at least one hand to control the reins. How would riding handless be handled? We've seen knights charging with lance and shield, archers and cowboys firing from horseback, and the like, who guide their horses with their knees.

To expand on this - one of the characters in our game has the One Arm hindrance. After asking on the official answers forum, Clint answered that the One Arm penalty (-4 for performing a task that would require two hands) would apply. While this is an acceptable and FFF answer for this situation, something still doesn't feel quite right. I think it comes down to a character's ability to guide the mount with their knees; would this be an Edge-worthy thing?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Legendary


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 2008
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm that's new to me, too. Presumably the penalty wouldn't apply to your actual attack, but it would make it more difficult to remain mounted if you or your horse were Shaken or wounded.

If you want an Edge for it, maybe you could model it on Oversized Weapon Master, as that negates the -4 penalty for using a two-handed weapon in one hand. That would make it a Seasoned Edge, requiring Riding d8+.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wiggy
Legendary


Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 5707
Location: TAG me. I dare you!

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not worth an Edge. More likely something any competent rider could do, as evidenced throughout history. Ignore the One Arm ruling if a character has Riding d6 would be a simple solution.
_________________
Wiggy
Creative Director Triple Ace Games
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
ValhallaGH
Legendary


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5928

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Mounted Combat Reply with quote

mgtzx wrote:
I think it comes down to a character's ability to guide the mount with their knees; would this be an Edge-worthy thing?

Depends upon the setting.

In some settings, such ability is worthy of an edge; this is especially true in settings without stirrups. But any setting where you want knee-control to be something that requires focused training would be appropriate.
In other settings that is a fairly common ability, especially for military horsemanship (d6+ in Fighting and Riding). When learning to fight from horseback, or use a lariat or pretty much any other skill that really requires two hands, learning to use your knees to guide your mount (and stay mounted) is very common. I can see not applying a penalty (or a reduced penalty, completely removed by a setting edge) to Riding checks to stay mounted.

It is worth noting when in the rules you have to make Riding rolls. Specifically if the rider or mount suffers a Shaken or worse damage condition. Otherwise, Riding is only rolled as often as Agility to move around the battlefield (i.e. when terrain and circumstances make walking or running potentially disastrous).
TLDR: Riding rolls should be rare, except in a cavalry battle.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ogbendog
Legendary


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 2282

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me that you can steer a horse with your knees, as long as you don't have to roll. but if you need a riding roll, and your hands are full of sword and shield or whatever, you are kind of hosed.
_________________
Bill Ogden
Author of Kaiser's Gate Field Manual Vol 1: Mounts, now available for purchase.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/119241/Kaisers-Gate-Field-Manual-Mounts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mgtzx
Novice


Joined: 08 May 2013
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, everyone; this has been as helpful as always.

I hadn't considered what actually requires Riding rolls to be made. We'll keep it FFF and only have these potential penalties come up when Riding rolls actually need to be made, rather than making excuses for unnecessary rolling.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Legendary


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 2008
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mgtzx wrote:
I hadn't considered what actually requires Riding rolls to be made. We'll keep it FFF and only have these potential penalties come up when Riding rolls actually need to be made, rather than making excuses for unnecessary rolling.

It does still mean that if a rider (or their mount) is Shaken while fighting with both hands, they're almost always going to be dismounted by the blow. A -4 penalty in Savage Worlds is a huge deal (it's the same penalty as fighting in pitch darkness). So those traditional movie scenes where someone rides away slumped over their horse with an arrow in their back will be very rare.

An Extra who's a competent cavalryman (Riding d8) will have an 87.5% of falling off his horse if you cause him or his mount to become Shaken, and if his horse is moving at the time he'll suffer an additional 2d6 damage (an average of 8.4 damage) from the fall, which likely means a second Shaken result, and therefore incapacitation.

What you might consider is being a bit more flexible about the definition of having a hand free. Perhaps if the character is holding two weapons they can choose to drop one in order to negate the penalty (e.g, they drop their sword as they desperately grab the reins), while if they're using a two-handed weapon (such as a bow) they can choose to hold on with the other hand, effectively causing the weapon to become unreadied (so they'd need to spend an action readying it before they could attack again).

Or you could build the option into the roll itself: instead of suffering a -4 penalty to the Riding roll, the character automatically drops a weapon (or unreadies a two-handed weapon) unless they get a raise on the roll.

I'm assuming there would be further penalties if you're riding bareback (-2? So an unskilled rider using both hands would be rolling d4-8?!), but perhaps a military saddle could give you a +1 bonus to your Riding rolls when trying to avoid falling off, in the same way that a survival knife (SWD) gives +1 to Survival rolls, tailored clothing (FC) gives +1 to certain Charisma rolls, camouflage fatigues (NE) give +1 to Stealth rolls, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ogbendog
Legendary


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 2282

PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Echoing Zadmar, in some games there are normal saddles, and military saddles which give a bonus

I could see saying that a military / knight's saddle gives +2 to riding to remain mounted.

or come up with a "Mounted Ace" edge, ("Born in the Saddle"?) that gives a general riding bonus

http://www.horsemanpro.com/articles/saddle.htm
_________________
Bill Ogden
Author of Kaiser's Gate Field Manual Vol 1: Mounts, now available for purchase.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/119241/Kaisers-Gate-Field-Manual-Mounts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The Angle
Veteran


Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Posts: 670
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whether a rider can control a horse with his knees has as much to do with the horse as the rider. If a horse hasn't been trained to respond the way you want, no amount of kneeing it in the ribs will make it turn. All you'll do is make it angry and frustrated. With training, OTOH, the horse will practically read your mind. This is a case where I'd emphasize the horse's quality and history, and not just assume that every horse is an identical cipher.

Steve
_________________
"When choosing between two evils, I always pick the one I haven't tried before." -- Mae West
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ogbendog
Legendary


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 2282

PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2014 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so, maybe a warhorse is only -2 to control with no hands?

I could see a "cowpony" having that training as well
_________________
Bill Ogden
Author of Kaiser's Gate Field Manual Vol 1: Mounts, now available for purchase.

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/119241/Kaisers-Gate-Field-Manual-Mounts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JRutterbush
Novice


Joined: 26 Feb 2013
Posts: 78

PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would assume that, among other things, the "guide with you knees while you fight from horseback" is at least partially covered by using the Riding die to limit your Fighting die. But I'm with the "keep it simple" crowd: anybody that expects to fight from a horse (by taking ranks in both Fighting and Riding) would train in guiding a horse with their knees. This should be covered under common knowledge at the very least (though it might not be common in some settings, as has been mentioned). Unless you want mounted combat to be full of people falling off their horses at the slightest provocation, just let those with an actual Riding die guide with their knees. Keep it simple.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wilbry
Novice


Joined: 27 Mar 2014
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

+1 to keeping it simple.

It is perfectly fine to guide your horse with your knees - in fact legs are the primary method for controlling a horse. Reins, bit, and bridle are just there to give a little more finesse in your control - you dont NEED them.

Also, saddles...
Saddles are there to reduce fatigue (riding bareback is VERY tiring) and support better balance.
If you want to put a little detail into the mounted side of things you could provide different saddles:
basic saddle: +1 to checks to avoid fatigue, +1 to checks to avoid falling off.
jumping saddle: +2 to checks to avoid falling off.
travel saddle: +2 to checks to avoid fatigue.
You can call them names specific to your campaign.

You can add these bonuses to riding checks. For example, when in a chase, the saddle could bonus the riding roll to avoid obstacles such as hedges, creeks, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
corwyn
Novice


Joined: 06 Jan 2006
Posts: 64

PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I am by no means an expert, I work with horses and have done a fair amount of work with horse training. In virtually any style of training, the essential foundation is teaching the horse to give to pressure. This is necessary not just for riding the horse but for pretty much all aspects of handling the horse. The result of this is that you can use your legs to control any horse that isn't wild.

That said, it takes training of both the rider and the horse to be able to perform intricate maneuvers both with and without the reins. Take a look at dressage or reining competitions to see just how intricate a good horse and rider can get.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW General Chat & Game Stories All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum