Username:    Password:      Remember me       
Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
Discussion Forum for PEG/GWG
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

My Take on Night Life
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW Home-brew Settings & Conversions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
farik
Seasoned


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:02 am    Post subject: My Take on Night Life Reply with quote

I'm prepping a home brew setting and I'd appreciate any feedback people have.

The setting is loosely based on "Nightlife" by Stellar Games published in 1990. It predated White Wolf in terms of playing monsters engaged in a secret world of shadows. I'm leaning away from the games original splatterpunk emphasis in favor of more a horror themed urban fantasy feel. Sort of like Being Human crossed with Angel. Player Character races live on the fine line between the human world and the "monster" world. Other races like ghouls, and human sized insects exist but they aren't going to be player races since they aren't human enough.

So here is a link to the character creation guidelines and as I said I'd like to hear any feedback you might have.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/147xd9zMOKDJCRy8jkn6TWD1aaX6WgmbRxUh9xrmb5K8/edit


Last edited by farik on Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
samuraicrab
Seasoned


Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 164
Location: Pawtucket,RI

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the concept but feel the powers are high ish.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
farik
Seasoned


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

samuraicrab wrote:
I love the concept but feel the powers are high ish.


Could you elaborate? Do you mean too high powered or too high priced? Or something else entirely?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
samuraicrab
Seasoned


Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 164
Location: Pawtucket,RI

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To high powered. It is almost a super hero level game.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
farik
Seasoned


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

samuraicrab wrote:
To high powered. It is almost a super hero level game.


May I ask why you think so? The Arcane backgrounds all have more complications than a standard fantasy arcane background, the power points generally recover at a modified (usually limited rate) and all of the "new spells" are limited versions of existing spells in SWD. Even the most "powerful" arcane background of witchcraft is almost useless in combat due to it's slow casting requirement.

As I said it is intended to be urban fantasy so there will be a modicum of "powered Heroics" but even then the races are balanced to be equivalent to standard human characters in SWD.

Could you give me an example of where you see the power creep?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
samuraicrab
Seasoned


Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Posts: 164
Location: Pawtucket,RI

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not a proven theory,just a gut feeling I got from reading the book. It feels like you are doing 'dark superheroes' then urban fantasy. Then again I could be wrong. It has happened before.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Thunderforge
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 950

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In looking over it briefly, I think you're alright with power level. It certainly is what I might expect from a White Wolf game. However, the Expanded Grimoire Edge is too powerful, since it packages two New Power Edges for the price of one. A Witch will quickly outstrip the other ABs.

It looks like for many of the powers, you've copied them straight out of Savage Worlds Deluxe and changed the name. Item 6 of the Pinnacle Fan License states that you can't reproduce any material from Pinnacle's books. So instead, just list the powers available for the AB alongside any specific name: e.g. Burrow (One with the Earth), and direct them to the Savage Worlds core book for how they work.
_________________
Wild Card Creator: Any PDF. Any Setting. No Extra Cost.

The Elder Scrolls conversion and other fun creations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
farik
Seasoned


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thunderforge wrote:
In looking over it briefly, I think you're alright with power level. It certainly is what I might expect from a White Wolf game. However, the Expanded Grimoire Edge is too powerful, since it packages two New Power Edges for the price of one. A Witch will quickly outstrip the other ABs.


Did you notice that it takes witches 5 rounds to cast their spells and the severity of their backlash table? I thought that would balance out their much larger list of available spells and the fact they can learn so many more spells.

Thunderforge wrote:
It looks like for many of the powers, you've copied them straight out of Savage Worlds Deluxe and changed the name. Item 6 of the Pinnacle Fan License states that you can't reproduce any material from Pinnacle's books. So instead, just list the powers available for the AB alongside any specific name: e.g. Burrow (One with the Earth), and direct them to the Savage Worlds core book for how they work.


I thought I'd only written out powers where I changed the mechanics. I'll have to go back and double check. Thanks for pointing that out.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
farik
Seasoned


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alright I've opened the document up to be viewed again.

I'd really like to know if the increased number of spells available to the witchcraft background is balanced by it's severely limited use in combat.

Also if the Alchemy Edges might need nerfed and/or need higher requirements.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thunderforge
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 950

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

farik wrote:
Did you notice that it takes witches 5 rounds to cast their spells and the severity of their backlash table? I thought that would balance out their much larger list of available spells and the fact they can learn so many more spells.

I see the problem. The terms both "hexes" and "spells" have separate meanings, unlike settings such as Deadlands where they are interchangeable terms for Savage Worlds powers. When I saw that the Expanded Grimoire Edge gave you two new spells, I assumed it meant two new powers (i.e. Expanded Grimoire Edge = New Power Edge x 2). I see now that "hexes" work just like standard Savage Worlds powers and "spells" are something else. (You might want to find some way of clarifying that though, it's an easy thing to mistake since, as I said, the terms are interchangeable in other settings).

Now that I'm closely looking at the "spell" rules, they seem to be rather harsh. The five round waiting period (which can be extended to 8 or 10!) means that it's not feasible in combat. Even with double duration, it takes about as long to cast the spell as it does for the power to run its course!

Being able to add modifiers for extra damage, extra range, and so on seems pretty reasonable. I just think in it's current form it's not worthwhile. I would actually suggest removing the 5 round wait altogether, since all of the card draws being bad is penalty enough.

I would suggest the following changes:
  • Make spells and hexes the same thing. Basically, a witch knows a power and she can optionally choose to augment it
  • Eliminate the 5 round wait for augmenting spells
  • Keep the the negative modifiers and double power point cost
  • Make just one arcane skill roll for setting off the power
  • Failure on that one roll results in the really bad card draw (after all, there's a fair chance they're going to die from it)

Now I realize that you're going off someone else's setting, so this method of casting may be at odds with the source material. Mechanically though, I think this is a bit more Fast! Furious! and Fun! (at least for my tastes).
_________________
Wild Card Creator: Any PDF. Any Setting. No Extra Cost.

The Elder Scrolls conversion and other fun creations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
farik
Seasoned


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thunderforge wrote:
farik wrote:
Did you notice that it takes witches 5 rounds to cast their spells and the severity of their backlash table? I thought that would balance out their much larger list of available spells and the fact they can learn so many more spells.

I see the problem. The terms both "hexes" and "spells" have separate meanings, unlike settings such as Deadlands where they are interchangeable terms for Savage Worlds powers. When I saw that the Expanded Grimoire Edge gave you two new spells, I assumed it meant two new powers (i.e. Expanded Grimoire Edge = New Power Edge x 2). I see now that "hexes" work just like standard Savage Worlds powers and "spells" are something else. (You might want to find some way of clarifying that though, it's an easy thing to mistake since, as I said, the terms are interchangeable in other settings).

Now that I'm closely looking at the "spell" rules, they seem to be rather harsh. The five round waiting period (which can be extended to 8 or 10!) means that it's not feasible in combat. Even with double duration, it takes about as long to cast the spell as it does for the power to run its course!

Being able to add modifiers for extra damage, extra range, and so on seems pretty reasonable. I just think in it's current form it's not worthwhile. I would actually suggest removing the 5 round wait altogether, since all of the card draws being bad is penalty enough.

I would suggest the following changes:
  • Make spells and hexes the same thing. Basically, a witch knows a power and she can optionally choose to augment it
  • Eliminate the 5 round wait for augmenting spells
  • Keep the the negative modifiers and double power point cost
  • Make just one arcane skill roll for setting off the power
  • Failure on that one roll results in the really bad card draw (after all, there's a fair chance they're going to die from it)

Now I realize that you're going off someone else's setting, so this method of casting may be at odds with the source material. Mechanically though, I think this is a bit more Fast! Furious! and Fun! (at least for my tastes).


I think it's important that "spells" take longer to cast since they are the most versatile power list of all the arcane backgrounds I also don't want the witch to overshadow the Vampire and Werewolf in terms of combat focus since that's really their schtick. The hexes are intended for standard combat while spells are how a party can get access to "bigger effects" in fact the current witch spell rules are just a sped up version of SW:HC ritual casting taking only a single action rather than a whole minute.

All of that being said though I think there is room for adjustment. What if the basic number of "prep actions" it took was reduced to 3 (rather than 5)? And the difficulty was reduced by extending that to 4 or 5 (rather than 8 or 10). That way a witch would be able to create a blast in combat but his allies will still need to protect him until he gets the spell off. That way by taking 5 rounds they're pretty much guaranteed a success since they would be getting a +4 to each roll.

As for how dangerous spell failure is; it is intended to be dangerous but I think the chart may look more dangerous than it is since each deuce has it's own effect listed and the d10s are scary but on average they're just going to generate a single wound each.

Witchcraft is intended to be the high stakes arcane background lots of potential power with lots of potential risk but I don't want it to be so scary nobody thinks it would be worth playing or so powerful everyone will want to take it.

BTW: I really do appreciate the feedback.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thunderforge
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 950

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with prep actions of any length is that it makes the whole thing impractical for combat. Why wait 3 rounds to cast something once when you can just pull out a gun and shoot three times? If these were "rituals" that were intended to be done out of combat or in the safety of your sanctum at home, that might not be a problem (you just spend 15 minutes doing it while the other people are watching TV). But that doesn't seem to be the intention.

As for the lethality of the card table:
  • There's a 5.6% chance of the witch outright being killed (3.7% chance of comrades outright being killed too)
  • A 37% chance of suffering 3d10 damage, which is more damage than any weapon or spell in standard Savage Worlds. The average damage is 18.33, which will outright kill any extras and give an unshaken Wild Card with d6 Vigor 3 wounds.
  • 1.3% chance of getting 3 wounds and being Incapacitated.
  • 22.2% chance of a demon, dark god, or other being coming through (which I assume is always bad and will probably kill them)

So there's a 44% chance of getting 3 wounds or more and another 22.2% chance of summoning a dark god, which is probably just as bad. Definitely seems very dangerous to me!

I'd suggest looking at the Huckster in Deadlands and the Backlash table in the Marshal's Handbook. That's a good example of an arcane background with a lot of potential, but a lot of risk without being too overwhelming.
_________________
Wild Card Creator: Any PDF. Any Setting. No Extra Cost.

The Elder Scrolls conversion and other fun creations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
farik
Seasoned


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clarify for this setting in combat a witch should rely on hexes or more conventional weaponry using a full blown spell should be the equivalent of deciding to start using dynamite in a gun fight.

And yes once the cards come out is most likely something horrible is going to happen (and some people may die horribly) but that's why spells should only be used in dire circumstances or with lots of preperation and planning.

That being said I may reduce the d10s but as I drop the die size the chance of them exploding increases. As a player would you rather suffer 3d10 damage or 1d4 wounds (ignoring toughness)?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ValhallaGH
Legendary


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 6218

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

farik wrote:
using a full blown spell should be the equivalent of deciding to start using dynamite in a gun fight.

By which you mean what? That it's a fantastic idea as long as you have dynamite and a decent throwing arm? Because that's how my military experience views dynamite in a gunfight - like grenades that take a while to prep.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
farik
Seasoned


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
farik wrote:
using a full blown spell should be the equivalent of deciding to start using dynamite in a gun fight.

By which you mean what? That it's a fantastic idea as long as you have dynamite and a decent throwing arm? Because that's how my military experience views dynamite in a gunfight - like grenades that take a while to prep.


As in there are times it is a great idea and times it's a horrible idea. You wouldn't want to use dynamite in a paper factory, near gas lines, or in a confined room where you're just as likely to be caught in the blast. But if you've got the skills to time the fuse, the arm and distance to get the stick away from you and an enemy clustered behind cover or you simply don't care about collateral damage then dynamite is great.

Spells are primarily intended to be used outside of combat but they should be able to be used in combat with a high degree of risk. In other words it should be more like making dynamite than throwing dynamite. If you want to use spells in combat regularly you would take the alchemy edge.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Thunderforge
Veteran


Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 950

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be taking your analogy too literally, but dynamite in Deadlands only does 2d6 damage (avg. 8.40) for one stick, 3d6 (avg. 12.60) with two sticks, and 4d6 (avg. 16.80) with four sticks. That's still less than the 18.33 average damage from 3d10.

And yes, having lower dice (e.g. 3d8) means they'll explode more often, but the average value is still higher on 3d10 (15.42 vs. 18.33). Dealing 1d4 wounds is a pretty non-standard way of doing things and is about as lethal as 3d10 damage in my opinion. It's also problematic because a d4 Vigor character and a d12 Vigor character suffer the exact same way and there's no soaking.
_________________
Wild Card Creator: Any PDF. Any Setting. No Extra Cost.

The Elder Scrolls conversion and other fun creations.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ValhallaGH
Legendary


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 6218

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

farik wrote:
As a player would you rather suffer 3d10 damage or 1d4 wounds (ignoring toughness)?

3d10. It has a chance to roll 3 and do zero wounds, just like it has a chance to roll 67 and deal 15+ wounds. Unlike 1d4 wounds.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Maine
Seasoned


Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 124

PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would recommend the TV series "Lost Girl" (a Canadian show, also aired on SyFy). This sounds along the lines of what you are thinking.

It follows a similar concept of a 'monster world' (or in this case, 'Fae' world). The main character is a succubus; she has befriended two detectives, one of which is a wolf-shifter, and the other a male siren.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
farik
Seasoned


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maine wrote:
I would recommend the TV series "Lost Girl" (a Canadian show, also aired on SyFy). This sounds along the lines of what you are thinking.

It follows a similar concept of a 'monster world' (or in this case, 'Fae' world). The main character is a succubus; she has befriended two detectives, one of which is a wolf-shifter, and the other a male siren.


Yes, Grimm and Being Human are also providing inspiration.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
farik
Seasoned


Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 410

PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thunderforge wrote:
I may be taking your analogy too literally, but dynamite in Deadlands only does 2d6 damage (avg. 8.40) for one stick, 3d6 (avg. 12.60) with two sticks, and 4d6 (avg. 16.80) with four sticks. That's still less than the 18.33 average damage from 3d10.

And yes, having lower dice (e.g. 3d8) means they'll explode more often, but the average value is still higher on 3d10 (15.42 vs. 18.33). Dealing 1d4 wounds is a pretty non-standard way of doing things and is about as lethal as 3d10 damage in my opinion. It's also problematic because a d4 Vigor character and a d12 Vigor character suffer the exact same way and there's no soaking.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW Home-brew Settings & Conversions All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum