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Weapon Enchantment: Never Miss
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cpk666
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:25 am    Post subject: Weapon Enchantment: Never Miss Reply with quote

Need some input on this enchantment. Basically, the weapon will never miss on any attack that a roll would be allowed for--so no one-in-a-million richocet shots for missile weapons, for example. The attacker stills rolls to hit: on a failed roll, the weapon hits but only does half damage, and a critical failure will either hit for no damage (just a graze) or have some other effect (gun jams, bowstring breaks, sword slips from hand, etc.).
Of course this would allow characters to do crazy things like making rapid attack headshots. But given the number of times a successful attack fails to even shake its target, is it really that powerful to have the occasional miss still manage to cause a Shaken or Wound result? I may need Zadmar to run some simulations on this.

CK
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

d6 across the board, Alpha has the Never Miss edge; if the attack would miss, it instead inflicts half damage (rounded down and applied after all other modifiers). If the attack is a critical failure, it inflicts 0 damage.

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 59758 of them, while Beta won 40242.

Strength, Vigor and Fighting increased to d8, armed with longsword and shield.

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 65822 of them, while Beta won 34178.

If they both use wild attack:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 52770 of them, while Beta won 47230.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not have it simply ignore up to 6 points of attack penalties? Stacked onto a +1 Fighting weapon, that would quickly become an Improved Trademark, that's as close to "never miss" as the basic rules allow.


Alternately - "If your attack misses, roll 1 weapon die of damage. This does not apply to Firing Blind, nor other shots that could only succeed by divine intervention."
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cpk666
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
d6 across the board, Alpha has the Never Miss edge; if the attack would miss, it instead inflicts half damage (rounded down and applied after all other modifiers). If the attack is a critical failure, it inflicts 0 damage.

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 59758 of them, while Beta won 40242.

Strength, Vigor and Fighting increased to d8, armed with longsword and shield.

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 65822 of them, while Beta won 34178.

If they both use wild attack:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 52770 of them, while Beta won 47230.


Thanks!

As a comparison, could you run that again, but substitute a +2 to hit and damage weapon for the never miss weapon?

CK
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cpk666
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Why not have it simply ignore up to 6 points of attack penalties? Stacked onto a +1 Fighting weapon, that would quickly become an Improved Trademark, that's as close to "never miss" as the basic rules allow.


Alternately - "If your attack misses, roll 1 weapon die of damage. This does not apply to Firing Blind, nor other shots that could only succeed by divine intervention."


Ignoring attack penalties does nothing to improve one's chances of hitting a Parry of 10.

Rolling only one weapon die of damage makes it less likely to ace, and thus less supsenseful. The few times this item has been used, everyone stops to watch the roll. I like that.

CK
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cpk666 wrote:
As a comparison, could you run that again, but substitute a +2 to hit and damage weapon for the never miss weapon?

With d6s and shortswords:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 81363 of them, while Beta won 18637.

With d8 Strength/Vigor/Fighting, longsword and shield:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 79838 of them, while Beta won 20162.

With wild attack:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 72036 of them, while Beta won 27964.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So +2 attack and damage is vastly more powerful than half damage on a miss, or no damage on a critical miss.

As long as the current version is fun for everyone, it sounds good.
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cpk666
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Zadmar. I can't tell you how much that simulator really helps. I'm not rules lawyer, but I've got several gamists in my group, so it is nice to have some actual numbers to support my rulings.

CK
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Clint
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Weapon Enchantment: Never Miss Reply with quote

Well, as you said, it's "free" Rapid Attack and forget plain head shots, Called Shots at -6 for +4 damage and bypassing Armor (the nice thing about bypassing armor is that it isn't halved since it isn't "damage").

Take a typical longsword and even if all three attack rolls fail and do half damage, that's still effectively 3 hits for 1d8+2 ignoring armor. Actually, it would be better than that since 2d8 is going to increase the overall average before halving the result (there's a 1 in 8 chance of a 1 on 1d8, but a 1 in 21 chance for 2d8 halved, presuming it is rounded down).

So at minimum, the weapon hits 3 times for an average of 7 points of damage ignoring all armor, which against a character with a d10 Toughness is three successes for Shaken, 1 wound, and 2 wounds.
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cpk666
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Weapon Enchantment: Never Miss Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Well, as you said, it's "free" Rapid Attack and forget plain head shots, Called Shots at -6 for +4 damage and bypassing Armor (the nice thing about bypassing armor is that it isn't halved since it isn't "damage").

Take a typical longsword and even if all three attack rolls fail and do half damage, that's still effectively 3 hits for 1d8+2 ignoring armor. Actually, it would be better than that since 2d8 is going to increase the overall average before halving the result (there's a 1 in 8 chance of a 1 on 1d8, but a 1 in 21 chance for 2d8 halved, presuming it is rounded down).

So at minimum, the weapon hits 3 times for an average of 7 points of damage ignoring all armor, which against a character with a d10 Toughness is three successes for Shaken, 1 wound, and 2 wounds.


I think you meant "So on average..." Cool The true minimum would be three hits that do 0 damage each. Or 3 hits that each do 3 damage, if you ignore critical failures. But I'm sure Zadmar can run the simulations again, having the Alpha character make rapid attack called shots. I'm not sure if the simulation included armor, but I guess he could try it with chain & helm.

CK
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Clint
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Weapon Enchantment: Never Miss Reply with quote

cpk666 wrote:
Clint wrote:
Well, as you said, it's "free" Rapid Attack and forget plain head shots, Called Shots at -6 for +4 damage and bypassing Armor (the nice thing about bypassing armor is that it isn't halved since it isn't "damage").

Take a typical longsword and even if all three attack rolls fail and do half damage, that's still effectively 3 hits for 1d8+2 ignoring armor. Actually, it would be better than that since 2d8 is going to increase the overall average before halving the result (there's a 1 in 8 chance of a 1 on 1d8, but a 1 in 21 chance for 2d8 halved, presuming it is rounded down).

So at minimum, the weapon hits 3 times for an average of 7 points of damage ignoring all armor, which against a character with a d10 Toughness is three successes for Shaken, 1 wound, and 2 wounds.


I think you meant "So on average..." Cool The true minimum would be three hits that do 0 damage each. Or 3 hits that each do 3 damage, if you ignore critical failures.


There's actually a better chance of a critical failure than rolling the minimum damage on all three attacks. Where "better chance" is 1 in 3000 for a d8 skill vs. 1 in 10,0000 for rolling a 3 or less on 2d8 three times.

Really, neither "at minimum" nor "on average" are completely accurate here. It's an oddity where the chance of a critical failure and the chance of actually "succeeding" are both at the far end of the scale (though succeeding is more likely of course).
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JackMann
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I wouldn't let the never miss work on called shots. It's a decent special ability on regular hits. Going for the vitals everytime just goes too far.
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cpk666
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JackMann wrote:
Yeah, I wouldn't let the never miss work on called shots. It's a decent special ability on regular hits. Going for the vitals everytime just goes too far.


I'll wait to see the results of Zadmar running some more simulations: rapid attacks, rapid attacks to vitals, wild rapid attacks to vitals, etc. With both the "never miss" weapon and then with a +2 to hit and damage weapon. I think the results will be surprising. It may just appear to be over-the-top without actually being so.

CK
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ogbendog
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What if the sword was so focused on attacking that you couldn't parry with it? So you are -2 to parry?

It reminds me slightly of the Misenchanted Sword by Lawrence Watt-Evans.

Once drawn:
It would basically take over and go for the throat of any "man" you attacked, where man = human, have gone through puberty
You could not sheath the sword until you killed a man
You could not be disarmed until you killed a man
the last two meant once drawn, you had to carry it in your hand or stuck to your shoulder or something until you killed a man

Once you killed, it was a normal sword, you'd have to sheath it and redraw before the magic was activated.

The no disarm meant that once, for example, he fought a dragon that batted at the sword, the force of the blow threw the sword and wielder about 20' to the side.

Weilder could not die. He would age, could be dimembered, etc, but could not die
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d6 across the board, Alpha has Never Misses:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 59875 of them, while Beta won 40125.

Using headshots:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 66946 of them, while Beta won 33054.

Using Rapid Attack (that -2 Parry hurts):

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 51874 of them, while Beta won 48126.

Using both:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 79706 of them, while Beta won 20294.

Here's with Strength/Vigor/Fighting d8, longsword and shield, and we'll give them 3 armour.

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 57825 of them, while Beta won 42175.

With headshots:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 55993 of them, while Beta won 44007.

Going for the eyes (-6, but ignores armour):

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 87148 of them, while Beta won 12852.

With Rapid Attack:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 45440 of them, while Beta won 54560.

With a Rapid Attack headshot:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 59176 of them, while Beta won 40824.

With a Rapid Attack aimed at the eyes:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 92245 of them, while Beta won 7755.

Ouch, Clint's right, that's brutal.

What if you change Never Misses so that instead of "no damage on a critical failure", it's "no damage if the modified attack roll is 1 or less". Here are the above d8 warriors again:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 57469 of them, while Beta won 42531.

With headshots:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 39706 of them, while Beta won 60294.

Going for the eyes (-6, but ignores armour):

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 39127 of them, while Beta won 60873.

With Rapid Attack:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 29040 of them, while Beta won 70960.

With a Rapid Attack headshot:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 13757 of them, while Beta won 86243.

With a Rapid Attack aimed at the eyes:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 15141 of them, while Beta won 84859.
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cpk666
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that, Zadmar.

What if a miss does half normal damage--no vitals damage bonus and doesn't bypass armor?

CK
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cpk666 wrote:
What if a miss does half normal damage--no vitals damage bonus and doesn't bypass armor?

So if the called shot misses, it's treated as a half damage torso hit?

Strength/Vigor/Fighting d8, longsword+shield, 3 armour.

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 57821 of them, while Beta won 42179.

With headshots:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 43089 of them, while Beta won 56911.

Going for the eyes (-6, but ignores armour):

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 36813 of them, while Beta won 63187.

With Rapid Attack:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 45083 of them, while Beta won 54917.

With a Rapid Attack headshot:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 33707 of them, while Beta won 66293.

With a Rapid Attack aimed at the eyes:

There were 100000 fights. Alpha won 29812 of them, while Beta won 70188.
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cpk666
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar,

Your calculations seem to assume that Beta is just making a single normal attack each round. When I run the simulations for a variety of tactical choices, here is what I get:

2 fighters all traits d6, shortsword & +3 armor, Alpha has Never Miss Sword

Single Attack each
Alpha wins:54%

Both wild attack
Alpha wins: 51%

Alpha wild attacks for head, Beta wild attacks
Alpha wins: 40%

Alpha wild attacks for eyeslit, Beta wild attacks
Alpha wins: 54%


Rapid Attack each
Alpha wins:55%

Both wild rapid attack
Alpha wins: 51%

Alpha wild rapid attacks for head, Beta wild rapid attacks
Alpha wins: 36%

Alpha wild rapid attacks for eyeslit, Beta wild rapid attacks
Alpha wins: 55%

CK
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cpk666 wrote:
Zadmar,

Your calculations seem to assume that Beta is just making a single normal attack each round.

Yes, that's right. When I give one of them wild attack I also give it to the other, because if your opponent uses it then you'll almost always be at a disadvantage if you don't use it as well (the only exception I've found is when fighting 4+ opponents).

Aside from that, Beta doesn't do anything special, as I was trying to show the impact of different combinations of edge against a "normal" opponent.

Without the Never Miss sword, Rapid Attack will significantly reduce your chances of success. For example when comparing the warriors with Strength/Vigor/Fighting d8 + longsword + shield + 3 armour, if one of them starts using Rapid Attack his chances of winning drop to around 22%, and if both fighters wild attack his chance is only around 29-30%.
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cpk666
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
cpk666 wrote:
Zadmar,

Your calculations seem to assume that Beta is just making a single normal attack each round.

Yes, that's right. When I give one of them wild attack I also give it to the other, because if your opponent uses it then you'll almost always be at a disadvantage if you don't use it as well (the only exception I've found is when fighting 4+ opponents).

Aside from that, Beta doesn't do anything special, as I was trying to show the impact of different combinations of edge against a "normal" opponent.

Without the Never Miss sword, Rapid Attack will significantly reduce your chances of success. For example when comparing the warriors with Strength/Vigor/Fighting d8 + longsword + shield + 3 armour, if one of them starts using Rapid Attack his chances of winning drop to around 22%, and if both fighters wild attack his chance is only around 29-30%.


So when I set the number of attacks to 3, I also have to add the Parry penalty manually, or does the program do that for me?

CK
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