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Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
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Viperion
Novice
Joined: 22 Jul 2012
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:09 pm Post subject: Extras/Mooks appropriate for a Veteran level game |
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Hi Folks,
I'm running a series of one-offs (b/c THAT makes sense  ) in which the pre-constructed characters are Seasoned, verging on Veteran. What "level" of mook would you throw at such a group? The first game I ran I just gave the mooks d6 in pretty much everything and the group just waltzed through them, taking the odd hit every now and then. Which is fine, actually as it emphasizes the "big damn heroes" mentality which is always nice 
If I wanted to challenge them a bit more, could I up the mooks to d8 Fighting/Shooting? Would that be too good? I don't want to wipe the party, but I'd like a bit more resistance for my poor nameless targets  |
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tigerguy786
Seasoned
Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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You can go up to d10 fighting/shooting fairly easily. The party really isn't frail.
Our Fallout group took on a group of Super Mutants (Ogre stats), 2 a piece, and we're 30ish. Granted we had plenty of healing and a rocket launcher, but still we made it through just fine.
_________________
TIGER, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
| Clint wrote: | | Common sense always trumps anything pretending to be an "overarching" rule. |
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greyseerco
Seasoned
Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| tigerguy786 wrote: | You can go up to d10 fighting/shooting fairly easily. The party really isn't frail.
Our Fallout group took on a group of Super Mutants (Ogre stats), 2 a piece, and we're 30ish. Granted we had plenty of healing and a rocket launcher, but still we made it through just fine. |
So says the man who was gunned down round one and had all the missiles. But yeah without an abundance of onsite insta-heals (stimpaks = healing power so can be used in combat) it was going to go poorly. |
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tigerguy786
Seasoned
Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 441
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 10:41 pm Post subject: |
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| greyseerco wrote: | | tigerguy786 wrote: | You can go up to d10 fighting/shooting fairly easily. The party really isn't frail.
Our Fallout group took on a group of Super Mutants (Ogre stats), 2 a piece, and we're 30ish. Granted we had plenty of healing and a rocket launcher, but still we made it through just fine. |
So says the man who was gunned down round one and had all the missiles. But yeah without an abundance of onsite insta-heals (stimpaks = healing power so can be used in combat) it was going to go poorly. |
I DID point that out. And I wasn't saying that it was a usual thing...
Now that I think about it, it probably didn't help too much. I do stand by d10 fighting/shooting being ok against a Veteran group, especially when they're just extras. My experience has shown that Savage PCs are really hard to kill so long as they have a dedicated healer
_________________
TIGER, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?
| Clint wrote: | | Common sense always trumps anything pretending to be an "overarching" rule. |
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Lord Stone
Seasoned
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
Posts: 152
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with d10s being fine. The d8 is probably fine for lesser mooks as well. The real power of mooks, as with PCs, lies in the edges they can throw around. Those Brawny Bruisers with 2 additional Edges will make for interesting challenges I'd say. |
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ValhallaGH
Legendary
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4568
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Extras/Mooks appropriate for a Veteran level game |
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| Viperion wrote: | | I don't want to wipe the party, but I'd like a bit more resistance for my poor nameless targets |
Mostly, tactics and equipment. Though keep in mind that you can use anything as an Extra (I played in a scenario (Dragnarok) were all the extras were Drakes with Flight - scary and epic simultaneously).
Smoke grenades, frag grenades, tear gas grenades, flash-bangs, and other ways to bring the pain quickly and to everyone. Add in some suppressive fire, and go nuts. A throwing skill, Quick Draw, and Rock and Roll on top of the allied soldier stat block makes for some mean assault teams. Similarly, Marksman combined with a Three Round Burst weapon is ... obscene; even when using an extra (go for the limbs, -2, so that a 1 will miss but anything else will bypass their torso armor - also, because the sniper is a jerkwad that likes torturing people).
Ranged attacks are great because the TN is almost always 4. Pretty easy, even with d6 Extras. Upgrade them to d8 / d10 and the PCs are going to be in a world of hurt.
Melee is powerful as long as you gang-up 5-to-1 for the maximum gang-up bonus. They lose a few to first strike, so leave that guy to the archers; the rest of the gang swarms the wizard, cleric, thief, and ranger. They'll probably still lose, but they'll bring some pain to the heroes.
In more primitive settings, I've had a lot of success with wolves. The basic wolf, operating the way wolves do (stealth, called shots, gang-up, hit-and-run, etc.). 2 per PC at Novice nearly wiped the party - two dead, one incapacitated, and the last two fleeing for their lives (with the injured).
Against Veteran ranked characters, you don't need to pull punches. A liche with his elite undead guards (Soldier, Veteran, with the Undead template and heavy armor). Soldiers with rocket launchers and hover APCs. A war party of Ogres, with Orc cannon-fodder. A Giant Worm. A dragon and its "hatchlings" (drakes as extras).
Good luck.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die." |
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shinryu
Seasoned
Joined: 18 Jul 2011
Posts: 300
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:53 pm Post subject: Re: Extras/Mooks appropriate for a Veteran level game |
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| ValhallaGH wrote: | | Viperion wrote: | | I don't want to wipe the party, but I'd like a bit more resistance for my poor nameless targets |
Mostly, tactics and equipment. Though keep in mind that you can use anything as an Extra (I played in a scenario (Dragnarok) were all the extras were Drakes with Flight - scary and epic simultaneously).
Smoke grenades, frag grenades, tear gas grenades, flash-bangs, and other ways to bring the pain quickly and to everyone. Add in some suppressive fire, and go nuts. A throwing skill, Quick Draw, and Rock and Roll on top of the allied soldier stat block makes for some mean assault teams. Similarly, Marksman combined with a Three Round Burst weapon is ... obscene; even when using an extra (go for the limbs, -2, so that a 1 will miss but anything else will bypass their torso armor - also, because the sniper is a jerkwad that likes torturing people).
Ranged attacks are great because the TN is almost always 4. Pretty easy, even with d6 Extras. Upgrade them to d8 / d10 and the PCs are going to be in a world of hurt.
Melee is powerful as long as you gang-up 5-to-1 for the maximum gang-up bonus. They lose a few to first strike, so leave that guy to the archers; the rest of the gang swarms the wizard, cleric, thief, and ranger. They'll probably still lose, but they'll bring some pain to the heroes.
In more primitive settings, I've had a lot of success with wolves. The basic wolf, operating the way wolves do (stealth, called shots, gang-up, hit-and-run, etc.). 2 per PC at Novice nearly wiped the party - two dead, one incapacitated, and the last two fleeing for their lives (with the injured).
Against Veteran ranked characters, you don't need to pull punches. A liche with his elite undead guards (Soldier, Veteran, with the Undead template and heavy armor). Soldiers with rocket launchers and hover APCs. A war party of Ogres, with Orc cannon-fodder. A Giant Worm. A dragon and its "hatchlings" (drakes as extras).
Good luck. |
This is all very good advice. Some other thoughts:
1) If you haven't run the numbers on Extras vs. Wild Cards, you really should look at the probabilities of success. Even with a D10 an Extra is "only" as good as a Wild Card with a D6 vs. a TN 4. He may be slightly better at high TNs, actually, but for the most part he's going to be on par with even your "average" Wild Card. This is a little more dangerous for melee fighters since Fighting directly affects Parry, but for most skills you don't have to worry as much about the ratings being overly inflated.
2) If you're sending melee fighters out after them knocking them down with a Push and a grapple is a very nasty tactic; even animals should be smart enough to pull this off if with numerical superiority (see aforementioned wolf pack). One runs in with a +2 bonus for moving 3 inches; one runs in and initiates a grapple (locking his jaws on if he's a wolf, or just kneeling on the guy) at +3 for the gang-up and knockdown (or even +5 if you're going Wild Attack with them) and then every one else wails on them at even higher bonuses. The grapple's not even technically necessary; one good Push and then two or three Extras going at it at an effective +3/+4/+5 (or +5/+6/+7) is a bad day for the guy on the ground; the particular nastiness here is that even a 1 doesn't fail if the bonuses are high enough for Extras so you could even reach a point where the attacks are effectively guaranteed to hit (or you can start taking headshots). The grapple just keeps that poor guy on the ground till he breaks free. You can also grapple first and then just have everyone else just keep hitting the guy too. Even in a one-on-one this isn't the worst tactic
3) Once you're in contact you can get a lot of mileage out of Full Defense. Yes, you're running a multi-action and making a couple of rolls plus the bookkeeping the new Parry ratings, but Parry is one place where Extras do have parity with Wild Cards, more or less.
4) Extras can Trick and use Test of Wills too. The Shaken result is the one to aim for, but the extra +2 to whatever action or the -2 Parry can make a big difference as well. Also, you can absorb at least First Strike with having a fighter move up with the Defense maneuver; it's not foolproof by any means but a +2 to Parry is at least a little bit of a bonus.
5) Massed. Automatic. Fire. Preferably from bipods or with Extras packing Rock n' Roll. Enough bullets in the air and they gotta hit something. Be liberal with the innocent bystander rule, too; if the PCs bunch up those 1s and 2s can start to add up. I like suppressive fire too but as written it's pretty ineffective against cover. As an opposed roll it's better.
Anyway, hope that will help things out for you. |
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Viperion
Novice
Joined: 22 Jul 2012
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the advice guys 
I ran the game over the weekend (at a tourney/mini-convention) but wasn't expecting a full group - it's a modern setting so plenty of guns and not so much hand-to-hand. I got seven players!
In the end I chickened out and just gave the bad guys d6 shooting d6 fighting; there were a lot of them, but the PC's weren't troubled too much by them. Two PC's were on 2 Wounds, but the rest weren't even scratched (most of their toughnesses are in the 7-9 range as they were all kitted out with Kevlar armour).
Satisfying for the players though And they managed to capture the leader for further questioning (a man in a black suit named Lynch <A-team music plays in the background>) |
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Crumbs
Novice
Joined: 22 Aug 2010
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| You can always give them a higher toughness and parry even if their traits wouldn't normally give them that. |
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