Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[vitamin_dei]

I see a trend that's threatening to become a problem in my campaign and figured I'm come here once again and get the advice of Savage Worlds GMs more experienced than myself (though I've got about 20 years of screen time).

So, here's the situation... my fantasy campaign has a burly saurian fighter type whose main tactic in combat is the Push maneuver (shield bash, particularly. d10 Strength, large shield and a 3" run) followed by a grapple if the target is still conscious. Thus far, about six sessions in, I'm finding the tactic to be a bit overwhelming. I clearly need to adjust to it, but I'm not sure exactly how to compensate for one player's tactics without either ramping the challenge up enough to be pretty dangerous for the party squishies or just looking like I'm building encounters around him. Or worse yet, gunning for him.

His rationale is that the tactic makes sense for him against skilled melee opponents, and I have a hard time faulting that logic. It's one of his best options for leveraging his superior strength (and the environment) against an enemy he might otherwise have a difficult time landing solid hits on. The fact that connecting with the attack is a given feels ever so slightly off to me, personally.

So, advice? Preferably advice that doesn't involve me tinkering with the rules since the players are still solidifying their grasp on them and I feel like making the mechanics a moving target will only serve to frustrate.

Thanks in advance!

[Chris Tavares]

It's nice to have a tactic that works; good for the player for coming up with something that handles mêlée combats well.

For the next encounter, I suggest a bunch of crossbowmen.

[jpk]

Well, Improved First Strike will definitely make that close-and-close-again strategy painful to employ.

You say "follow up with a grapple." Does the push machine remember to take Multi-Action Penalties for doing two things that round (shield bash and grapple)? For that matter, I tend to think grapples use two hands. Since he's already used one for the push, he'd be looking at the -4 one-armed penalty for his grapple follow-ups. Remember that the grapple doesn't get the movement or shield bonuses that the shield bash does, either.

Are his shield bashes suffering from off-hand penalties, or has he bought Ambidextrous?

Are his victim's buddies not going "Oh, holy crap, look at that thing. Kill it before it eats us all!" and piling on the shield basher for gang-up bonuses? I mean, I probably would.

Those are my quick thoughts on it.

[Xavier Onassiss]

You could also try discussing the situation with the player. I once had a character with an overly-powerful attack maneuver, and it was causing problems for the GM. (Different game system; I won't go into the details here.) He didn't ask me stop using it, or "nerf" the maneuver, or try to change my character. He just suggested that I save that maneuver for use as a "finishing move" and try to limit its use to once per session. Actually, I rather liked the idea. My character had a Finishing Move! Our fights were a lot more dramatic after that, and everyone was happy.

This looks like it might be a similar situation, so I'd suggest talking to the player. And make it clear to him that you don't want to "nerf" his most powerful attack or take it away from him; he just needs to save it up for "Boss Fights" or their equivalent, instead of using it for an "I win" button in every melee encounter. And of course, if you throw him a bennie for using it when it's dramatically appropriate he's more likely to catch on.
_________________
300 years from today: After the Terracide... the lifeless, charred husk of humanity's homeworld slowly cools in the empty, silent void of a dead star system.
Welcome to the rest of the Galaxy. It's Dark Out There.
Coming in 2013.

[vitamin_dei]

[canology]

Does a shield bash suffer an off-hand penalty? The description would lead me to think that it wouldn't apply since the Push isn't a Fighting roll.

I'm not seeing how this tactic is so powerful. Unless I am reading the rules wrong he is only doing 1d10+3 on a successful Push (unless all his opponents are standing in front of things for him to knock them into).

[jpk]

[jpk]

[vitamin_dei]

[vitamin_dei]

[ValhallaGH]

It's an Opposed Strength roll. Give your villains a good strength and be willing to spend your bennies to avoid getting smacked around. An Ogre with a wild die and a couple of bennies doesn't get pushed around, he does the pushing.
Also, using the shield to bash one guy means you probably are not using it to defend yourself from swords and arrows; welcome to lowered parry, population you.
First Strike is awesome, as are Held actions, allowing for all kinds of combo-destroying Shaken conditions.

Finally, it sounds like the example session's main issue was The Drop. +4 attack and damage is amazingly powerful, transforming any encounter into a cakewalk. That's one of the reasons I make my PCs work their tails off to get The Drop - it makes the fights too easy.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

[Zadmar]

Back before SWD, Clint's original proposal for push/trip allowed the characters to use either Strength or Agility. I think I actually prefer that, although when using Agility to actively trip someone I'd probably limit it to knocking the opponent prone.

But if someone is charging at you, I think it would make sense to be allowed to use Agility to dive out of the way - and perhaps if you win the opposed roll, they are effectively 'pushed' (1" on a success and 2" on a raise) in the direction they were moving. So if you were agile enough, you could sidestep your attacker and they'd run straight into the wall, possibly even knocking themselves out if they hit it hard enough! Of course they'd have +2 to their roll for the 3" run-up, so the odds would still be in their favour, but it would certainly make the tactic a bit more risky.

If the bad guys are familiar with the PC's tactics and have the chance to prepare, they might use hidden traps, illusions, caltrops, trip-wires, padded walls, or any number of other things.

However if you want to work within the RAW, and don't want to make it look as though you're picking on the player, I'd focus on the environment and NPC positioning. Without a 3" run-up the player won't get the +2 bonus to his push roll (making his push inflict less damage than a normal attack), and if there's 2" or more of empty space behind the NPC, there'll be nothing to knock them back into.

[vitamin_dei]

[Hellfire6A]

You are getting some great advice here. I'd just add. Hold. At lower levels mooks and bosses using Hold can really do a number on PCs with a favorite tactic. You don't even have to have First Strike to make a believer out of the PC.

You could also make the suggestion that knowledge of this tactic is getting around...especially if the PCs have been bragging in the local inn/public house.

You may try some variant of "setting weapons" from the mounted combat rules, p74 SWD.
_________________
http://www.armsonline.org/

None are free until all are free!

[ValhallaGH]

[BluSponge]

[Sushi]

I like the idea of just using Hold as a counter to this. Make the (reasonable) assumption that once a charge is begun, it has to continue for at least X" past the target if the target uses an interrupt to successfully get out of the way.

So you could have your defender go on hold, then interrupt at the last second and spin to the side and behind the charger to strike them in the back as they pass. If he's especially devious, the defender could position himself right in front of a cliff or a hard wall first, and cause the charger to ram/fall when their turn resumes.

[GruffaloCrumble]

Add hidden pitfalls along the route of his charge!

[ogbendog]

When I ran SW d20, one of my Jedi wanted me to nerf one of the Jedi powers. He thought it was to powerful.

On a related note, one of my favorite sayings is, it goes both ways. If push is that mighty, have an ogre push him.

[canology]

Hey, since we're talking about getting knocked into stuff, does the STR damage (plus shield damage) get added to the extra d6 from the target getting knocked into something solid, or are they separate rolls.

My inclination would be separate rolls, but I'm curious what the official stance is.