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Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
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Ron Blessing
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Joined: 08 Aug 2005
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Location: Thornton, CO
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 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| King Nate wrote: | | If the template touches a corner of a character’s grid is the character affected? Judgment call! |
This is not a judgment call if you're following the rules as written.
| King Nate wrote: | | I don’t have a halfling miniature, so I’m using this human one instead…and the template touches my human miniature should it affect me? Judgment call! |
Again the rules say this isn't a judgment call. You choose your miniature; the rules are still the rules:
SWD: "To attack with an area effect weapon, the character places the template on the table (or picks where he wants the center of the blast to be) and makes a Shooting or Throwing roll. If the attack is successful, the blast is centered where desired. Everything under (or partially under) the template is affected."
With all the above said, I'd recommend ruling that if it touches any section of a grid, the whole grid is affected. If the GM and players are following the same rule, it's fair--no need to count squares. As far as players wanting to be able to know exactly where their characters may be hit by an area effect attack, that seems pretty meta to me (and beyond my comfort level of suspension of disbelief, in terms of realism), and in my experience Savage Worlds is a very anti-meta game.
That said, it is your game. Play it your way. No harm, no foul. At the end of the day all that matters is you keep it Savage. 
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Ron Blessing
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King Nate
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Joined: 24 Jan 2012
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Believe me, I am playing the game my own way. I just responded to a question if I use a grid. I said yes, but then said here are the problems I have with using a grid.
If you look at my small blast template picture, the bottom left hand corner of the 14 square template would bring up the question from the players whether the character is affected. The template barely touches the corner of the square. Depending on the miniature used, the character may or may not be touched. That is a metagaming aspect of the game that shouldn’t even have time wasted talking about. If it was a PC in that corner square they could argue that the template barely touches and they shouldn’t be affected. If it was a creature, the PC could argue that it touches and they should be affected. Technically, you can make a ruling (i.e. Judgment call) on it from the start and stick with the ruling making it fair to for everyone, but what happens when a character dies because he was in that corner? He’s not going to remember all the fairness that happened before it, he’s going to be bitter because he was barely touched and died.
If you make the judgment call to go with the template touches any part of the grid the whole square is affected, then you have the small blast template hitting between 9 and 14 targets. (I haven’t check to see how many squares a Large Template could cover). To me this is a problem, a problem I solved by removing the S/M/L templates and replacing it with a quicker snap-to-grid template. Pick a square and have that be the center of a 3x3, 5x5, or 7x7 blast. This is not a problem and keeps everything fair without question. What I pointed out was, the cone template cannot be easily adjusted as there is no simple way to snap it to the grid. |
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Amaril
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Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 1064
Location: Decatur, GA
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Snate56
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Joined: 11 Jun 2006
Posts: 3629
Location: Monroe, Washington
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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I also notice that, in your example, your Small Burst Template appears too large. It should be 2" in diameter or 2x2 squares. Your cone looks right.
SteveN
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Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16157
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:14 am Post subject: |
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| King Nate wrote: | | I agree, we are playing the game differently. However, that doesn’t change the fact that a template changes the number of squares it can touch or the metagaming aspect that, depending on the type of miniature you are using, also affects whether it gets touched by the template. |
Perhaps, but I think it is equally a fact that limiting the area affected by a grid that does not exist except as a construct of the game is also metagaming by its very definition. Explosions don't end in right angles.
And really how much true impact does the type of miniature have in actual play? Nearly none really.
First off, it requires a miniature that either doesn't fit the scale of the other miniatures or doesn't fit the character being played. Both of which are fairly rare occurrences in my experience.
Secondly, it requires the player to be somewhat psychic in knowing where to place their miniature because of an area effect attack that hasn't occurred yet. If a player wants to rules lawyer their way into moving their mini within the square during someone else's action, well, that's not really something the rules can fix in my opinion.
And lastly, it requires the off-scale precognitive miniature to be in a square specifically on the edge of the template, not clearly in it or out of it, but exactly on the edge.
Just doesn't occur often enough in my experience to worry about. Again, for me, squares affected is meaningless; miniatures touched is all that matters. If a half-folk character lucks out in mini placement, then more power to being Small. 
<Psst. I also count diagonal movement as 1 for 1. It's insane!!! >
| King Nate wrote: | | Besides, who’s going to sit at a table with the Core Rules Brand Manager and tell him that he’s playing the game wrong? Of course you’ll be met with a positive response. |
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Lord Stone
Seasoned
Joined: 17 Aug 2011
Posts: 148
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Sometimes I use a grid, sometimes I don't. When I use a grid, I prefer a hex grid because snap-to-grid movement is more interesting and has a more natural feel on it. When I use a grid kinda depends on how big and complicated a combat is... sometimes it is just a slugfest and placement doesn't matter all that much anyways, at other times placement is very important.
As for templates... I don't snap those to grid at all. In fact, I don't even have any cut-out templates. My players just go "I want to throw the spell about there. Can I hit those enemies under the template?" I make a quick assessment and either say yes or no and my players accept it most of the times. If they don't they get the chance to make a compelling argument otherwise :-p. In the end it's all fun and games. |
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ValhallaGH
Legendary
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4453
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| King Nate wrote: | | Besides, who’s going to sit at a table with the Core Rules Brand Manager and tell him that he’s playing the game wrong? |
I would. 
... As long as he's not the GM. Because the GM is always right, at the table.
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"Not against a Servitor."
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King Nate
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Joined: 24 Jan 2012
Posts: 40
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Amaril wrote: | | Why don't you just use D&D AoE templates instead? Squares 2, 4, and 6 inches wide would work, and cone templates of similar length to the SW Cone Template would work fine, too. As long as it's consistent in your game, it's perfectly fine. |
I never played that version of D&D, but I was aware that the templates existed. So I look into using them, but ultimately decided against it. I first didn’t like the 2/4/6 because it wasn’t as fast as a 3/5/7. I find it easier to pick a square knowing how many adjacent squares are affected. I didn’t use the cone because of how different the shape was compared to savage worlds, although as you said as long as it’s consistent, it’s perfectly fine. I just haven’t pulled the trigger on that cone version yet.
| Snate56 wrote: | I also notice that, in your example, your Small Burst Template appears too large. It should be 2" in diameter or 2x2 squares. Your cone looks right.
SteveN |
You are correct, the SBT is too large. This “accidental” mistake of mine only strengthens my point. When using a measuring device such as a ruler or a template, errors are much more likely to happen. This would not have happened if I only used a 3x3 set of squares.
| Clint wrote: | Perhaps, but I think it is equally a fact that limiting the area affected by a grid that does not exist except as a construct of the game is also metagaming by its very definition. Explosions don't end in right angles.
And really how much true impact does the type of miniature have in actual play? Nearly none really.
First off, it requires a miniature that either doesn't fit the scale of the other miniatures or doesn't fit the character being played. Both of which are fairly rare occurrences in my experience.
Secondly, it requires the player to be somewhat psychic in knowing where to place their miniature because of an area effect attack that hasn't occurred yet. If a player wants to rules lawyer their way into moving their mini within the square during someone else's action, well, that's not really something the rules can fix in my opinion.
And lastly, it requires the off-scale precognitive miniature to be in a square specifically on the edge of the template, not clearly in it or out of it, but exactly on the edge.
Just doesn't occur often enough in my experience to worry about. Again, for me, squares affected is meaningless; miniatures touched is all that matters. If a half-folk character lucks out in mini placement, then more power to being Small.
<Psst. I also count diagonal movement as 1 for 1. It's insane!!! >
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I call your style metagaming, you call my style metagaming. I say “I made you” you gotta say “you made me” I mean, how childish can you get? You wouldn’t hit a guy in glasses would you? – Joker (Batman 1989)
In all seriousness though, it appears we are on the same page. Because I agree, both styles are metagaming. However looking over my post, I may have not been able to express my point correctly, so let me try again in a different way.
*takes deep breath*
When it comes to measuring something there are two different types of measurement;
When it is 89 degrees F. outside, is it really 89 degrees or is it 88.51248217025 degrees? Does that brick weigh 120 pounds or is it 120.1482483128636 pounds? This type of measurement is an approximate measurement. Depending on how precise the measuring instrument is, determines how exact we can get with our measurement. Couple that with the question, “how precise do we need to get without it becoming overkill?” 89 degrees is just fine for what most people need when determine the temperature outdoors.
The other type of measurement is exact measurement. Are there 6 jelly beans in that jar or are there...well there IS six jelly beans, no more, no less. No matter how precise the measuring tool is, the same number of jelly beans will always equal six.
Using a ruler and templates is an approximate style of measurement. Using a grid is also an approximate style of measurement. The difference is, we are using a different measuring tool. How precise the tools are for this game becomes irrelevant because as long as you are using the same style of measurement for everyone it all evens out in the end.
Now, besides the benefits listed earlier in this thread (speeds up and aids in gameplay), the grid also gives us the illusion that we are playing with an exact style of measurement. For example; you can move six inches with your ruler, now did you move 6 inches or did you move 5.87421142145 inches? Or was it 6.2142485 inches? The illusion of exact measurement with the grid becomes, I move six squares, no more, no less. Therefore it feels like an exact unit of measurement. Is one way better than the other? I don’t think so, it’s just different.
This is all fine and dandy, until you bring templates into the picture. The whole point of templates is to make stuff easy. I agree 100%, when using templates while not using a grid. The template is an approximate style of measurement that works perfectly when using a ruler to approximate distance in the game as written. We are not playing the game as written though, we are using a grid (even though there are sections written in the book that specifically measure things by squares, but that’s a whole different subject).
If we are using the grid to speed up and aid in gameplay while giving us the illusion of exact units of measurement, then why don’t we also convert the templates to a grid style to speed up and aid in gameplay while giving us the illusion of exact units of measurement? Because there is no way you can say that passing a template around the table, laying and adjusting the template to the approximate location, while determining who it touches and who it doesn’t, is faster than looking across the table at a square and each adjacent square and knowing without a doubt who is targeted. When it comes to speed of play, having a 3x3, 5x5, or 7x7 illusion of exact measurement beats using a template anytime.
Which brings me to my original point in the first place, before getting pulled into a debate that will be forgotten about by next month, the cone template cannot be converted into an illusion of exact unit of measurement and therefore becomes a problem when trying to play on a grid. Sure, you can ignore the grid and use the cone template anyway, and that’s what I do, because I don’t have a choice really.
However, there is another reason people use the templates even when using a grid, and I’m surprised nobody mentioned it before. The reason isn’t because it is faster, no, the real reason people use templates even while using a grid is because templates are freaking cool. You bust out that cone template for the first time and everybody is like “cool, sweet, looks awesome” or something similar. To be honest, the cone template is what made me give Savage Worlds a read in the first place. |
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ValhallaGH
Legendary
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4453
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:52 am Post subject: |
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... Wait, by the definition of the rules, the Template is the area affected. Precisely. Like your "jellybean" example, something either is or is not in the template; there is no question because the area affected is the relevant template.
Stop cutting your jellybeans in half and telling me there are more jellybeans!
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"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die." |
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Lord Inar
Heroic
Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 1532
Location: Boulder, CO
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JoeGun
Seasoned
Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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I have used grids before (usually with a VTT), but as for playing live, I prefer the tape measure and ruler method and have everything free form. For things like reach, we just eyeball it ( yeah that looks about an inch away ). We have used a grid a couple times ( one of my players picked up one of those big chessex ones). I use it begrudgingly ( i'm not a grid fan personally) I think without the grid, it really opens up the players to do things outside of the boardgameyness a grid gives you. I'm not saying players aren't as creative with a grid. I'm saying MY players aren't as creative on a grid!
As for the template discussion: I use them rules as written ( I guess that is easier without a grid, but for this discussion I will use it with the grid as well. ) Like Clint said, the template is an overlay that can be dropped anywhere. It can overlap some squares and not others, it doesn't need to be centered on a square. So usually I have my players try and drop the template on as many people as they can! And once again if it touches it hits. And we use green army men for bad guys ( I'm a cheap minis guy! ) and lego, ben10, and marvel figures for the good guys. On the grid via VTT it works the same way. I made translucent overlays for the templates ( even cone ) and drop them on as a "token" with the right size. THe player can move it wherever they want, I don't snap to grid for it, so they can try and get as many people as possible. Now on the VTT the tokens take up the entire square, so if it covers the square at all they are hit, so like Ron B said, if it touches the square it hit.
As for how you want to run your game: I'd say don't bother with uphill battles with your players. It's your game, sit down with them, talk to them as a group and figure out how you all want to run the rules for the game. As long as you all do it the same way it will balance out. |
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