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Reapers Kickstarter
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JackMann
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Over a hundred and eighty at this point, actually, without extras.
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The Dread Polack
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure someone around here has a better idea of how much it costs to make minis, but as I understand it, the cost of metal in a $8 mini is a lot less than $8, and the plastic is a LOT cheaper than that. If we're getting minis for around 50 cents apiece, then it has to be cheaper than that. What Reaper is really getting here is $1.25 million in guaranteed sales. That way they can make the molds and churn out the minis without wondering whether they're going to actually make their money back- they already have.

I sure it's true that even with the cost of producing the 150+ minis for each Vampire-level backer- each new backer puts at least some money into the coffers. They've been in business long enough to know the math and make that happen. Moving the operation to Texas is one of their stated goals. I'll be interested to see what else they do with the influx of cash.

Also, I wonder how sales of Bones will be after the Kickstarter. It's a small, well-connected market, and I bet a lot of us who buy Reaper miniatures have jumped on the Kickstarter. I, for one, probably won't actually go to the store to buy a lot more minis after this. (At least, I say that now, heh)
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robert4818
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dread Polack wrote:
I'm sure someone around here has a better idea of how much it costs to make minis, but as I understand it, the cost of metal in a $8 mini is a lot less than $8, and the plastic is a LOT cheaper than that. If we're getting minis for around 50 cents apiece, then it has to be cheaper than that. What Reaper is really getting here is $1.25 million in guaranteed sales. That way they can make the molds and churn out the minis without wondering whether they're going to actually make their money back- they already have.

I sure it's true that even with the cost of producing the 150+ minis for each Vampire-level backer- each new backer puts at least some money into the coffers. They've been in business long enough to know the math and make that happen. Moving the operation to Texas is one of their stated goals. I'll be interested to see what else they do with the influx of cash.

Also, I wonder how sales of Bones will be after the Kickstarter. It's a small, well-connected market, and I bet a lot of us who buy Reaper miniatures have jumped on the Kickstarter. I, for one, probably won't actually go to the store to buy a lot more minis after this. (At least, I say that now, heh)


I'm fairly cash strapped at the moment. So, what I managed to do was bite the bullet and get the single vampire level. I don't have the money to get any other extras, but looking at this, I ALREADY KNOW that once released, when my $$ is better, I'll have extras to purchase.

With the $100 Vampire, I have enough minis to run almost any SW game that I own. However, I don't have enough minis to run the big battles in those games that I might like.

So, down the road there will be purchases of things to flesh out the force. Tomb Critters? I'm going to need more than 2 spiders, 2 scorpions. Most likely going to need 6 or more of each.

Goblins? Probably going to need 2-3 more packs of each.

Nova? If they become bad guys, going to need more.

I tend to lean towards bigger battles, since SW handles them better, and the Vampire level doesn't quite hit that for me.
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The Dread Polack
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm betting there are some people who might not want all the bones they're getting at Vampire level and would be willing to trade you some tomb critters and goblins?
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JackMann
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

6,500 people seems like a lot, but in the grand scheme of things, even in a relatively small market like RPGs, it's really not. There are still going to be tens or hundreds of thousands of people who either didn't hear about the Kickstarter, didn't want to go through the hassle, or simply weren't prepared to drop a hundred dollars in one go.

It's like the numbers from GenCon. The vast majority of gamers will never go there. But because it's so many in one place, and because so much of the gaming media focuses on it, it seems much bigger than it is.

For a little perspective, right now Reaper ships out about 7,000 minis a day. And they can expect that number to rise as the Bones reduces the price point to grab a mini or two or ten (since the rising point of pewter minis has driven a lot of people out of the market).

As for the price of the plastic minis, yes, once they pay for the mold (which is in the tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars), the minis are pretty cheap to produce. However, there are diminishing returns as they end up having to ship to a much larger number of people, which is why we're not likely to see too many new "free" minis past the second set of iconics.

EDIT: They've posted some interested numbers in the comments lately.

On the optionals, they have to sell about $1,000 or so through the KS to avoid any losses. That's out of the 10,000 minimum order that they're required to make. The rest can be expected to sell through retail channels. This is one reason they want to move production in-house; they can more easily control how many they have at any given time; slow production if necessary, and never have to keep a large overstock on hand.

PC figures are the bulk of their sales. This is because players outnumber GMs, as well as the fact that GMs need NPCs and humanoid enemies for the party to fight. Hence the large number of humanoids in their offerings.

Pretty much every figure they're converting is from their top three hundred best selling minis, and generally in the top 10% of their respective categories.

Just kind of interesting looking at this stuff and understanding the reasoning behind why they're doing this stuff. Personally, I suspect they'll start to sell more monsters with the Bones line, as they make it a lot more affordable to plunk down a lot of orcs or goblins at once. But we'll see. Nice to know they're thinking this through, though.
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Jordan Peacock
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JackMann wrote:
PC figures are the bulk of their sales. This is because players outnumber GMs, as well as the fact that GMs need NPCs and humanoid enemies for the party to fight. Hence the large number of humanoids in their offerings.


Huh. Well, it HAS struck me as odd that there seem to be JUST SO MANY PC-types in the offerings. At least they've done a good job of providing basic monster types for fantasy. And I certainly can't complain about finally getting a Jabberwock at an affordable price! It would've been nice if the Chronoscope offerings had a few more "mook" adversary types, though.

JackMann wrote:
Pretty much every figure they're converting is from their top three hundred best selling minis, and generally in the top 10% of their respective categories.


Heh. I guess it would be interesting to see what that breaks out as. Why, I would've half expected to see the first Chronoscope figures be the "Anime Heroines," if it were purely popularity-driven. Not that I'm complaining; I don't need an army of plastic "Sucker Punch" knock-offs. Although, if they did those and the Cyber-Reavers, then perhaps I could do something half as awesome as some of Froggy the Great's conversions:


("Terminator Progression" by Spielorjh, AKA Froggy the Great)

Very Happy
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JackMann
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, while Reaper's never been one to shy from T&A (Sophie, the naughty maid, assorted others), there are companies with better options if that's what you're going for. SodaPop Minis practically specializes in it. The fantasy hero figures are the ones with broadest appeal, and the ones where Reaper really shines. This isn't to say that there won't be an anime girl figure at some point in Bones (or even in this KS), but I'm not surprised they've more popular figures.

This, incidentally, is their most popular figure. You'll notice he's in the initial thirty of the KS.
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Jordan Peacock
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JackMann wrote:
Eh, while Reaper's never been one to shy from T&A (Sophie, the naughty maid, assorted others), there are companies with better options if that's what you're going for.


I apologize if my phrasing was off, but, no, I wasn't saying that Reaper needs to put out more anime-babes and fewer monsters. To repeat, no, I don't need an army of plastic "Sucker Punch" knock-offs. My inclusion of Froggy's conversion was meant as a joke, as in, "But if they DID release them in plastic, I guess I COULD turn them into something useful for the PCs to shoot at."

What I really wish for would be more Chronoscope monster/mook types. If I really, really wanted an anime heroine to represent a PC in a game, I could shell out the money to get one. It's not THAT big of an investment to get just one figure, if that's all I'm getting. However, if I'm running a Savage Worlds game and pitting the heroes against a swarm of alien invaders, a zombie apocalypse, a gang of thugs, a horde of killer robots, etc., I want CHEAP figures for the opposition. If it's $6 a pop for aliens/robots/etc., forget that -- I'll scrounge around and see what I can do with some Clix minis, even what with the shallow details and irregular scaling, simply because I can't afford it otherwise.

For fantasy, I think they've got my "mook" needs pretty well covered, at least in the department of humanoids (goblins, orcs, kobolds, lizardmen, skellies, zombies) and low-level beasties (giant bugs, rats, bat swarms). For Chronoscope, however, they seem to have focused mostly on "random heroes" and "sci-fi soldiers." I won't be buying multiples of the basic Chronoscope or Zombie Hunters pack; it would take some work to figure out just why I'd need multiple copies of Action Jackson or Berkeley the Zombie Survivor or Sasha Dubois the Time Chaser or Ellen Stone the Cowgirl of Exposed Cleavage, etc.
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JackMann
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, no, your phrasing was quite clear. I was the one who was unclear. I didn't mean that you wanted the anime girls. Your post was pretty clear that you weren't very interested. I meant it more as a general "you," as in, if you were the sort who did like that sort of thing, it's not really the place where Reaper stands out from the competition, hence why they probably aren't among Reaper's top sellers. I'm sure the anime heroines have their fans, but most people aren't going to use them to represent their character in a game.
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Jordan Peacock
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

JackMann wrote:
I didn't mean that you wanted the anime girls.


Heh. The internet strikes again! I have to fly blind when it comes to text alone, sans facial expressions and tone.

And, yeah, Soda Pop Miniatures seems to really have it for -- ahem -- THAT sort of miniatures product. I love the meka/tank designs for Black Company, and I could do something about the pilot (even at my laziest, could just paint her like she's in a bodysuit, or use some putty and give her some ballistic armor), but the price-point doesn't seem as compelling compared to other minis projects I've seen recently. For $100 I only get a few figures -- even if some of them pretty big -- compared to the armies of zombies, soldiers, robots, powersuits, etc., I got from Zombicide and Sedition Wars. With those games, the price was good enough just for the miniatures even if I never bothered to play their respective board games.

Plus, the whole premise of the Relic Knights setting is a bit perplexing, and doesn't really draw me in. Let's see: The universe is being threatened by some sort of creeping tentacle horror, so in order to save the universe we send our pretty-girls with their cute pet sidekicks to ... fight each other? And this helps HOW? I might be losing something in translation. Wink Obviously somebody is on board with it, but at this point I'm only interested in the mecha figure elements, so at this price it's not enough for me to sign on.

Not that the Reaper deal really has a "story" to sell me on at all, but the SHEER MASS OF MINIATURES is obviously the attraction there.

Hmm. I wish Reaper would buy up the old Rackham molds, since Rackham went kaput. I don't know how much of it would translate to Bones bendy plastic, but it would be nice to see some of the AT-43 plastic mecha at Bones prices (vs. Ebay "rare collectible out of print + massive shipping & handling fees!" prices).

Since it looks like Bones isn't going to be releasing any alien invaders for my IMEF troopers to go up against, I'm thinking of digging out my AT-43 Therians, and putting the heroes up against a nanotech/cyborg menace (but in a slightly different flavor from Sedition Wars, since I'll get plenty of "zombies-in-space" action with that once it arrives).
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The Dread Polack
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Relic Hunters looks like an American company is trying to create a miniatures game with the tone of a Japanese mecha anime without any context. It makes about as much sense as 90% of mecha animes out there. Smile

Not to get off on a tangent...

They look like well-made minis, and I enjoy hot anime babes as much as the next guy, but that much cheesecake makes me want to roll my eyes more than I want to fill out an online order form. I paint for fun, not so much gaming. I have bought Werner Klocke minis because I like the way he sculpts females. I collect Anima Tactics miniatures partly for the same reason, but Soda Pop goes a bit too far for me, personally. If I were female, that would be a big turn-off for me. As a male, that fact turns me off a bit.

JackMann wrote:
This, incidentally, is their most popular figure. You'll notice he's in the initial thirty of the KS.


I would not have guessed that.
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greyseerco
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So how do you think they go about getting the shadows in the models without painting it. Are they using a black wash and then drybrush white?
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JackMann
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

greyseerco wrote:
So how do you think they go about getting the shadows in the models without painting it. Are they using a black wash and then drybrush white?


If you mean the figures from the Bones KS, keep in mind that none of these have been produced in the Bones plastic yet. We're seeing the metal figures that they'll be produced from. Obviously, metal doesn't have the backscatter issues the plastic does, and so you get much stronger shadows.
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Jordan Peacock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh. Vaguely related to the matter of how they get those previews to look the way they do: Some folks were complaining that the female halflings/gnomes looked creepy on account of their eyes. (I suppose there isn't any consideration being given there to the idea that they're meant to be painted, and thus you need to add the irises and pupils yourself. Yeah, leave eyes milky-white and they WILL be creepy! Wink )

Well, looks like they're hitting all the "obvious" fantasy stuff that somehow got overlooked early on. I suppose I'm hoping for too much to wish that they might slip in another Chronoscope item (as an optional, perhaps, so as not to irk the fantasy-only crowd?) before the end. I'm kind of afraid that with this big load of Bones (and the vast bulk of it fantasy), it's going to be a LONNNNNNG time before they move forward with turning any more Chronoscope into Bones post-Kickstarter.

P.S., I went ahead and picked up some "Cyber-Reavers." Those things were going for a cheap enough price at my local game store (less than $2 a Reaver) that I doubt they would've been cheaper at Bones MSRP anyway. I don't think I'll go the silly route of trying to cross them with Anime Heroines for conversions, but it would be interesting to have a few "battle-damaged" cyborgs. I might have to go through my "bitz" and see what I have available for some conversions.
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Cryonic
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, they've hit all their listed stretch goals... and my FLGS brought up an interesting point. Given how many minis are in the Vampire level, and their normal inability to keep distributors stocked, how long will it really take them to produce and ship over 10,000 orders of 200+ minis per order.

Earlier in the thread someone noted they "ship 7000 minis a day"... at that rate, if they completely screwed over the distributors just to fulfill the KS, then it would take them over 285 days to complete the orders. That's provided they can keep up the production of these new minis (even if they already have the molds from doing the metal minis) and don't get a higher failure rate with the plastic vs the metal.
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Lord Inar
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's how to hedge your bets:

Select Vampire level: $100

Select the four paint sets for $72 (48 paints)

Total cost = $172

Now compare that to the normal Reaper 54 color set of $185
Using that price, 48 paints should come to $164.40

Sure you don't get to pick the colors, but the four sets are a nice distribution.

The paints ship right away so you're getting something immediately.

Other than not getting the paint caddy (which comes with the 54 paint set) you are essentially "risking" $8 to get 200+ minis.

I'm in.

Also, if you chip in another $25 you get a minis case (not sure of the price) with six foam inserts that retail on the foamworks site for $30.

I'm not saying everyone should do this, but if you're interested but are worried about getting the minis, this is an approach anyway.
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The Dread Polack
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm getting the case. It looks like a pretty nice case at a very nice price.

Cryonic-

You make a very interesting point. I would have to assume they are frantically planning for this even now. It will be months before they're ready to ship, and they will probably start filling orders ASAP, but I expect it to take a while.

I'm not sure how their warehouse works, but they can always hire extra help. There are temp agencies that handle this sort of thing quite well. You can even get temporary warehouse space easily enough. I'm not sure how much this costs, but I'm sure it's being considered.
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Cryonic
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dread Polack wrote:

You make a very interesting point. I would have to assume they are frantically planning for this even now. It will be months before they're ready to ship, and they will probably start filling orders ASAP, but I expect it to take a while.

I'm not sure how their warehouse works, but they can always hire extra help. There are temp agencies that handle this sort of thing quite well. You can even get temporary warehouse space easily enough. I'm not sure how much this costs, but I'm sure it's being considered.


Temp warehouse space is one thing... needing more foundries is another Smile
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Jordan Peacock
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a hard time believing Reaper would commit to naming a date these figures would go out and then NOT being the least bit prepared to do it. If there's a problem with restocking Bones at present, I'd figure it has something to do with the manufacturing being overseas, so they have to put in a big order, get it shipped over here, then dig out of that to send to distributors, then put in ANOTHER order if that runs low, etc.

With the Kickstarter, they've got months ahead of time to know just how many need to go out, hence how many need to come over in that first shipment, and it's paid for ahead of time. I don't think that's going to be the same as the random fluctuations of FLGS to distributor to manufacturer from week to week. In any case, I've been putting in orders for Reaper minis, and I haven't run into any problems getting my orders filled.

In any case, if Reaper can't deliver the goods when it comes time, then I would imagine that people would simply demand a refund. That actually happened (to my surprise) with Zombicide, as some folks got impatient with the boxes going out. (Guillotine Games ended up raffling off the "Abomination" levels that were freed up as a result -- and they were snatched up pretty quickly -- so I guess it worked out okay for them in the end.)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing is, current shipping rate is not the same as maximum production capability. The former is based on demand and the latter is simply unknown not to mention potentially affected by the very difference in the product (material used) the Kickstarter is about. For all we know, production for Bones could take that long or it could be 10x faster and done in less than a month. Either is pure supposition as this point.

I just wish I could jump in on this myself, but it's not possible before it will all be over. Sad
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