Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[shinryu]

So I'm kind of curious what the official logic behind classifying weapons in one "class" or another is. So since Clint's off the board for a little bit, and somewhat inspired by the oddities of the HoE Reloaded weapons table, I'd like to throw this to the general board: does Savage Worlds in general consider SMG-type weapons to be one-handed or two handed? I apologize if this is a bit of a rehash of a previous thread of mine, and I realize the answer is technically "depends" even in real life, as this is one of the places where the imprecision of the terminology makes things difficult. That said, let's take HoER here an example:

HoER has the Tokarev machine pistol, the H&K MP20, and the NA Commando all listed as SMGs. I'm guessing the Tokarev is intended to be a legitimate machine pistol of the Ceska Scorpion/Beretta ilk, while the MP20 is probably either an MP7 or MP5-eseque weapon, and the NA Commando is likely what would be considered a carbine in modern usage as it's firing a rifle round. (Similarly, in Modern Ops, the G36C and AK47/74SU (clearly carbines) are listed along the MP5 and Uzi. Confusingly, the MP7 is listed as a pistol and while the damage and AP stats are reasonable it has no autofire and is suppressed by default, neither of which are correct)

So if SMG class weapons are two handed, then the Tokarev sucks, unless being designated "pistol" means it's usable in close combat. In general, if SMGs require 2 hands, they suck relative to rifles since you can't use them in close combat as they're bigger than a pistol (would be the one edge over a rifle) and they're statistically the same as pistols excepting autofire/3RB, which of course your average assault rifle should have. If you can use them one-handed (even if not in close combat) that's a boost over a rifle, even if technically not as true to life; most SMGs are designed around 2 handed use, and even machine pistols frequently have folding stocks and foregrips. It's also hard to reconcile people one-arming rifle-caliber carbines at all unless you're really going for the action movie style in your game. Again, though, wondering about the default assumption for the designers, not my personal preference here.

My best guess at intended interpretation: All SMGs are one handed, but machine pistols specifically are small enough for close combat use. This still leaves the one-handed carbine problem but hey pulp, right? Alternatively: only machine pistols are one-handed but any SMG or carbine is ok for close combat. Is either of these the intended interpretation? It would be nice if there were notes for which weapons which rules applied to in terms of how many hands, etc; again, it seems implicit in the classing of the weapons but it's never really officially stated, and since so many things end up in the "SMG" class (even in real life) that are very different kinds of guns it'd be nice to know for certain what's supposed to be what.

[77IM]

Well, I am not a gun nut (although some of my players ARE gun nuts and will debate RPG firearms rules for hours) and here's how I'd do it:

- Machine pistols can't 3RB but are one-handed
- SMGs can 3RB but are two-handed

Yes, this makes SMGs worse than assault rifles. They should be. And yes, these are both better than the SMGs listed in SWD (which don't have 3RB and which I believe are meant to be two-handed). I think I would not allow either in close combat but I am pretty strict about that because guns are already so much awesomer than melee weapons.

Again, that's just how I'd do it, it's not my interpretation of the RAW (which seems pretty harsh on SMGs).

-- 77IM
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Stuff I made: Arcane Abilities · Talent Edge · Savage Fading Suns · Savage Wuxia!

[catalac]

we are currently speaking about how ammo in real life effects a game...

the guns do what they say they do in the book.

i mean if we were going to hang the powers that be for not being gun nuts we should have done it with their rulings on colt buntline special and the colt revolving shot gun.

i mean the buntlines were suppose to be a little bit more accurate then peacemakers in deadlands because of their built in aiming devices. and what happened they ignored that and made it hard to draw (admittedly thats true)

and the revolving shotguns are just epic in game but in real life they were our equivalent of infernal devices. when used correctly they could make single regiments look like divisions but unless cleaned practically all day long they had a bad habit of chain firing not only destroying the gun but also usually taking the shooters arm off as well.

if we can live with miss depictions of these famous guns we can live with the rest of it.

once more the guns do what they say they do.

[shinryu]

[77IM]

To clarify, I would allow a machine pistol to double-tap. Alternatively, I've always felt the division between machine pistol and SMG was very blurry and almost arbitrary, even in real life, so maybe it's best to keep them the same.

You could compromise on the handedness. Rifles can be fired one-handed at -4 (following the logic in in the One-Armed hindrance). Maybe you could allow SMGs to be fired one-handed at -2.

I'd expect the main advantage of SMGs over assault rifles is that they be lighter and easier to conceal, like in briefcase or large jacket. I'm not sure this matters enough in game terms, but toting around an SMG should be easier than lugging an assault rifle around all day.

I am not a huge GURPS fan but one of the things I really like is their multi-purpose "bulk" modifier on guns that captures some of these differences all together. Maybe rifles are at -4 to fire one-handed, conceal, or fire in melee; SMGs are at -2; and pistols are at -0. That seems pretty easy to integrate into the core rules (and allows firing a rifle in melee at a penalty, something my players are always wanting).

-- 77IM
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Stuff I made: Arcane Abilities · Talent Edge · Savage Fading Suns · Savage Wuxia!

[farik]

Personally I like short weapon lists where there is very little difference between weapons. In my experience it allows players to choose weapons based on style rather trying to eke out a maximum tactical effect.

[shinryu]

[Clint]

FYI, the Tokarev weighs 7 lbs which is less than the biggest pistol (or even second biggest pistol) in HOE. Thus, it's not "larger than a pistol," so they can be used in close combat.

And yeah, it and the Blazer should probably both be designated as one handed weapons.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com

[shinryu]

Cool, works for me. I wonder in future if such weapons ought to be listed as pistols then? Also, are the Damnation and Thunderer supposed to be identical, by the way? Looked like a misprint to me.

[shinryu]

Having gone back and reread the explicit discussion of ranged weapons in melee for SWD, the stated rule for ranged weapons is "no weapon larger than a pistol," which does not mention handedness of weapons. So if some subset of SMGs are the "size" of pistols but are still two handed, that's a nice balancing trick without any modification to the rules as written (which I like); pistols/machine pistols are 1 handed and usable in melee, smaller SMGs are 2 handed but still usable in melee, and larger SMGs and rifles are 2 handed and too bit to be used in melee. Does leave carbines a bit in the lurch but as there are some SMGs clearly unsuitable for melee (the Thompson), I'm sure there are some carbines which could use the SMG rules. This seems reasonable.