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HoE Reloaded First Impressions!
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Big Bad Jack
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True enough but from the way it was described, it seems unlikely.. here's hoping, because powers aside, saying you had "Saint John Wayne" or "Saint Wyatt Earp" or "Saint Elliot Ness" at your back was one of the absolute greatest thing about being a Templar...
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jonnywaistcoat
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Loving the stuff so far. Not sure about the lack of Guts in a setting where there are so many penalties to fear checks, seems like it makes the edge almost as much of a necessity as the skill was in The Weird West.

Very impressed with how the rather odd assortment of HoE Arcane Backgrounds have been made to function within the overarching magic system. Junkers as a super-enhanced gadgeteer edge works brilliantly, and I the "Simon's Blessing" edge really makes the Templar's stand out, as it enables them to fight and buff in a way that really works, since they were never meant to be a "stand on the sidelines and buff themselves up" class.
One question I have about the "Slo Burn" power, though - does the xd10 damage that it does ignore the armour points? It's not really made clear, and against 100 armour, even 5d10 damage isn't going to do much.

The one thing that is really bugging me is how Junktown can get away with selling spook juice for $8/gallon. Ghost Rock is about that for an ounce, and it takes a pound of the stuff for a junker to make a gallon of spook juice, so the refineries would have to be at least 12 times as efficient as a lone junker at converting the stuff for the economy to work, and that simply doesn't ring true.
Also, how does the petroleum fuel from Oil Town and its ilk work in vehicles, as opposed to spook juice?
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Big Bad Jack
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SPOILER (For Classic): Spook Juice is so "cheap" because its being produced alchemically with human blood, gathered from Junkyard's bloodsports.
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Edgeworth
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deadlands Hell On Earth Reloaded. Even if it's a mouthful, I still love it.

I love the scavenging and currency rules. I love the Arcane Backgrounds (although I expected Templars to have just "always-on"-powers). I love the gear. Seriously, what's there not to like?

Right, the Fate Chips. Getting rid of Guts, that I can understand both game mechanic- and newcomerwise. After living in Hell on Earth for 15 years people are going to get jaded. Without Guts the setting is more in line with SWD. But I'm disappointed in the lack of Fate Chips. The rules for them aren't really that hard to learn and they bring very Deadlands-y feel with 'em. After all, they've always been there for us. Also, I've lately argued with my brother whether HoE is a western or not (he's on the "no" side) and replacing the Fate Chips for the standard Bennies, which are often seen as pulp instead of western as the Chips are, feels like giving him an edge over me.

With that out of my system, I'm really liking what I've read. We played a One-Shot of Classic HoE just a week ago (we last played years ago) and it felt overly complicated with different damages to count, armor values to take account of, number of dice every player had to have at ready, etc. And we didn't even have to worry about some most complicated rules! (I'm looking at you Arcane Backgrounds) Sadly, my gaming group seems to prefer Classic over Reloaded so it might take a while for me to return to the Hell on Earth.
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steelbrok
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When DRL first cam out I was mildly surprised they kept fate chips instead of just going with normal SW bennies. I always assumed it was to help fans of the Classic system eae over to SW.

Therefore I understand dropping them now although it does seem a litle strange having DRL and HoERL use different systems
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Big Bad Jack
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, I always considered HoE very much a Western... the movie was.. not great but The Postmn had a definte western aspect in places, and Mad Max? "Lone drifter with a gun helps defend a settlement from outlaws"? Archetypical Western lot...

Post-Apocalyptic Dark Fantasy Western!
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CyberRonin
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do love most of HoE Reloaded. Many of the things that are missing I'm finding that I don't care that much about and I love a lot that's was changed or added. I like the new Mutant table that makes being a Mutant an actual hindrance most of the time, the cool new edges(love you can start with a car), and the cool equipment with an awesome scrounging table.

However, there are some things that I don't like.

As was stated earlier technically a Templar can't use the several of his powers; namely banish, beast friend, pummel, slow, and stun, as all these powers need you to target someone else. I assume you meant for those to work normally, just reword the Templar Powers section to state beneficial powers, with the exception of healing and greater healing can only be cast on themselves. I was contemplating using the Super Power rules for Templars anyway, making them Minor League, Street Level supers and only letting them take certain powers.

Also I feel that Junkers lost a lot of there utility, losing there ability to make vehicles, generators, computers, and the like. I also miss the flavor of the dangers of working with gun spirits, I like having a reason for characters to not always go fully offensive.

I also noticed that medical supplies aren't listed anywhere in Scrounging. I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but it seams like an important thing to be missing.
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vaganardi
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Junkers can still build vehicles, computers, etc., all you need for that are the materials and the repair skill. A knowledge or two would also help. Technically, as the rules work - anyone can build mundain items it they have the right skills - the Junker rules cover their special (arcane) items.

Red sands has some great intventing rules - no arcane background needed. Check them out.
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Preatori0us
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the book! I've been waiting for this for a while now. Very Happy Very happy with it. The chips being gone, threw me at first but I can understand it. I'm sad about the Librarians not having an AB, but I'll live. Has the reason why been addressed, did I miss it?
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Yondalor
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CyberRonin wrote:
Also I feel that Junkers lost a lot of there utility, losing there ability to make vehicles, generators, computers, and the like. I also miss the flavor of the dangers of working with gun spirits, I like having a reason for characters to not always go fully offensive.


You could use the Speed power and say it's a vehicle. Trappings can work wonders in SW. Smile
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Big Bad Jack
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not full way n, but having the boo in hand, I am loving the new Templar Edges... stack those with Champion/Holy Warrior and the like and... wheeee, he slices, he dices...
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UndeadParrot
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't have HoE:R yet, but from what I'm gleaning here, I doubt if I will acquire it at all. Partly for some things I don't fancy, partly for some stuff I know my players will loathe outright.

This is not because I/we don't like SW, it it merely for some design decisions that I dislike.

One of my most avid players has a Templar and having to use Power Points instead of always active Powers will not cut it for him. Again, there are certainly perfectly reasonable design decisions why the Templars didn't get their own special rules instead of just handwaving it and slapping some Trappings and limitations on the Power/Points system, but honestly it doesn't transfer the feeling of a Templar to HoE:R; at least for us.

Dropping the Guts skill is another thing: Some say it's just a skill point sink anyway, but as others have pointed out why does HoE:R use different rules than its sister game DL:R? After all, aren't Fear Levels and lowering of those not a big issue in HoE:R anymore?

Looks like Junkers have had a similar makeover as Mad Scientists. Do they work really like those now? Just getting a New Power every other Advance and having a new device at their disposal? That would really nerf them and also remove the feel of a Junker who was supposed to build lots and lots of devices in Classic.

And that's my main grief with the Reloaded version ATM: it seems like the look and feel didn't really get transferred. While trappings are a really cool mechanic, I would have expected that they at least come up with special rules for some ABs than just letting them use the standard Power system.
Just picking a Power from SWcore and changing the name to its predecessor from Classic is something I believe most people here could have done themselves.

Of course, with having so many ABs in one single setting, it would probably mostly be back to Classic rules if each got their own rules section for Powers, but again: this is my totally biased, subjective and unfounded opinion Twisted Evil

Part of my problem is that for me it is not only the background story which defines a setting, but to a degree also the rules that form the world.

Really love the HoE setting, really had hoped HoE:R would confer the mood to the SW ruleset, but that's mostly the case with too high expectations: they get shot down Sad

I know, I know! I should give it a try and read it first before complaining so vehemently, and I could of course stick to the Classic rules (which I find clunky and cumbersome in many spots, by the way!).

But perhaps I'll just do what others have already proposed and tried: Blending Classic and SW rules to get the best of both worlds... Very Happy
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jonnywaistcoat
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

UndeadParrot wrote:
Again, there are certainly perfectly reasonable design decisions why the Templars didn't get their own special rules instead of just handwaving it and slapping some Trappings and limitations on the Power/Points system, but honestly it doesn't transfer the feeling of a Templar to HoE:R; at least for us.

Looks like Junkers have had a similar makeover as Mad Scientists. Do they work really like those now? Just getting a New Power every other Advance and having a new device at their disposal? That would really nerf them and also remove the feel of a Junker who was supposed to build lots and lots of devices in Classic.


Couldn't disagree with you more. In fact, the way they've worked Junkers and Templars in the new rules is one of my favourite parts. Yes, they've given them power points and stuff from the standard list of powers, because they've standardised magic over the whole system, but they've done anything but handwaving it.

I was personally really impressed with the amount of thought that went into keeping the style of the ABs, while sticking to the rule set.
Templars get all the support powers, but can only cast them on themselves, which sounds like a bit of a nerfing since they used to just be always on, but in practice, especially with the edge that lets you cast one each turn as a free action, it means that you're Templar's getting more and more badass with every round of combat, which actually feels more right to me - as the combat continues the sword gets sharper, the arm gets stronger and the chosen of the saints kick more ass. Plus, they automatically get Improved Trademark Weapon on their sword, which makes it even more powerful, and a lot of the importance of fate chips from Classic makes it over in some of the Templar edges.

And Junkers are actually kind of the opposite of Mad Scientists. They've ended up being kind of like if you crossed the Blessed AB with the Gadgeteer edge. They can build temporary devices based on any power available to the AB in a single action, as long as they have the components and power points available to them. This is lovely because it gives them that incredible flexibility, while setting limits that keep them in line with the power levels of everything else, as well as emphasising the importance of carrying around ALL THE JUNK.

If you're really into the minutiae and detail of the classic ABs, you'll probably still be disappointed, because they've simplified them all, but I've got to say, much as I loved classic, running a combat in Reloaded takes about half the time, and a lot of that comes down to less detailed, but more intuitive ABs.
With the exception of the loss of fate chips, which does bother me, HoE:R feels as much like Hell on Earth classic as DL:R feels like the original Deadlands.
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UndeadParrot
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnywaistcoat wrote:

the edge that lets you cast one each turn as a free action[...]. Plus, they automatically get Improved Trademark Weapon on their sword, which makes it even more powerful, and a lot of the importance of fate chips from Classic makes it over in some of the Templar edges.

The free casting definitely makes up for a lot, wasn't aware of that. And as I mentioned, haven't read it yet, so when there are some Templar Edges, probably all is well Smile

jonnywaistcoat wrote:

[...]running a combat in Reloaded takes about half the time, and a lot of that comes down to less detailed, but more intuitive ABs.
With the exception of the loss of fate chips, which does bother me, HoE:R feels as much like Hell on Earth classic as DL:R feels like the original Deadlands.

The reduced combat time is what I would really like to have for my group, but we also would like to keep many details of the Classic ABs.

Strangely enough the loss of Fate Chips doesn't bother me that much Confused Though if we were to play HoE:R we might actually use the Benny system from DL:R anyway to make an easier transition.

But from what you have written, there's obviously lots of stuff in the book that can't be conveyed properly in a forum. So, maybe I'll pick it up (if only to keep my HoE collection complete Wink) and form a well informed opinion...

PS:
jonnywaistcoat wrote:

I was personally really impressed with the amount of thought that went into keeping the style of the ABs, while sticking to the rule set.

Didn't mean the "handwaving" like it may have sounded. I'm sure they put a lot (!) of effort into the book when trying to convert the original ABs as faithfully as possible to SW.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CyberRonin wrote:
As was stated earlier technically a Templar can't use the several of his powers; namely banish, beast friend, pummel, slow, and stun, as all these powers need you to target someone else.

Download a new copy. They fixed that by the time I got my copy. #gunbattle

Quote:
Also I feel that Junkers lost a lot of there utility, losing there ability to make vehicles, generators, computers, and the like.

TRAPPINGS! What's a vehicle? The Speed or Fly powers with the trapping of being a vehicle - uses fuel and can carry passengers, but can't go some places and is more likely to be shot up. (Boats are just Speed limited to water, and submarines are Speed and Environmental Protection.)
I can't say much about Gun Spirits. They seem to have been cut entirely.

Quote:
I also noticed that medical supplies aren't listed anywhere in Scrounging. I'm not sure if this was intentional or not, but it seams like an important thing to be missing.

Hmm. Either all the medical supplies were scrounged up already or this is an oversight. Unless I'm missing another reason.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Big Bad Jack wrote:
Not full way n, but having the boo in hand, I am loving the new Templar Edges... stack those with Champion/Holy Warrior and the like and... wheeee, he slices, he dices...

I don't think you can stack them. Nothing says that AB (Templar) counts as AB (Miracles); and AB (Miracles) is a requirement for both Champion and Holy Warrior.

In fact, both Champion and Holy Warrior are cut out by the beginning of the Edges section (emphasis mine):
Quote:
The following Edges arenít used in Hell on Earth Reloaded: Any type of Arcane Background not listed in this book (nor any Edge requiring them) and Noble.

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Yondalor
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Download a new copy. They fixed that by the time I got my copy. #gunbattle


Damn! I just printed my copy, and now it's full of errors. Maybe we could compile a list of all the things that were changed in the PDF?
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yondalor wrote:
Damn! I just printed my copy, and now it's full of errors.

No, it was full of errors and then you printed it. Laughing
There's a reason PEG releases the pdf and waits a bit before sending the final print master to the printers. 3,000 fans are better editors than a fleet of professionals - that many eyes will catch almost every error.
Hold off printing for another week or so and you won't have that problem again.


Which reminds me:
Hey, Clint or Cutter, is Slow Burn supposed to have AP? As is, it's nice but not nearly enough (not even with Overkill) to take out a tank. With AP it will at least mess up the vehicle, though it won't necessarily kill it in one shot.
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smarttman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yondalor wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:
Download a new copy. They fixed that by the time I got my copy. #gunbattle


Damn! I just printed my copy, and now it's full of errors. Maybe we could compile a list of all the things that were changed in the PDF?


Is there a way you can tell when they update the pdf?
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Cutter XXIII
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Which reminds me:
Hey, Clint or Cutter, is Slow Burn supposed to have AP? As is, it's nice but not nearly enough (not even with Overkill) to take out a tank. With AP it will at least mess up the vehicle, though it won't necessarily kill it in one shot.

If you want a quality answer, I recommend the Official Answers forum.
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