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HoE Reloaded First Impressions!
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Thunderforge
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:46 pm    Post subject: HoE Reloaded First Impressions! Reply with quote

Well, it's here finally! So what are you first impressions?

First off, I am shocked that they got rid of the Guts skill. I never figured that would have gone away. That said, I think the system they have works with the addition of the Guts edge. And the Grit Edge is truly legendary. Walkin' through deadlands and not fearing a thing Smile

Operation Damocles Soldier is pretty spiffy, but I can see why it requires marshal permission as there aren't any drawbacks if you aren't planing on being Harrowed or an Arcane Background. The power gamer in me would love to pair this with Veteran o' the Wasted West for +40 XP Twisted Evil (I'd never allow it as a marshal though).

Part of me was wishing that the witches would have made it in. Oh well, I guess they were underpowered anyway.

The only thing I was kind of upset by was Tale Telling. It just seemedÖunderwhelming. Instead of getting a Legend Chip, the Tale Teller edge just gives you a plain old benny, which I figure a marshal would probably would have given you anyway for wanting to tell the tale. In fact, tale telling seems to be taking a big back seat since all you have to do is make a Persuasion roll (nothing about having the player having to tell the story at the table). The Marshal's section also doesn't really say why you'd want to lower the fear level or how you should reward your players if they do.

Anyway, that's my first impressions. What do you all think of it?
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Demonicuss Krinn
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I was a bit taken back when the "No Guts skill, no Fate Chips" bit came in. You'd figure since HoE is a sister setting to DL, they'd be in.

Re: Witches - yeah, kinda sad to see 'em not mentioned. Also not mentioned, Cyborgs. Which is kinda odd, as you'd think they'd be in there -(SPOILER) not to mention a certain NPC statted out has the fluff and crunch of cyborgs mentioned - it talked about Rules of Engagement and Cyborg Chassies. Maybe they dropped due to time or booksize or soemthing. Hopefully they'll be introduced later on.

I'll have to reread more in detail, but so far, so good. Will try to run a game (maybe update the "How I Learned to Love the Bomb" one-shot - speaking of which, is that meant for a Novice party, or Seasoned? (or higher)) to see how it runs.
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Cable Hogue
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a reason given WHY the Guts skill and the Fate Chips got "killed"?

HoE is - like the Weird West - a horror genre-crossover setting. So the Guts skill is not only deeply rooted in the Deadlands Classic HoE products, but also justified regarding the new "Guts ban" in the SWDE.

HoE is not a "lighthearted" heroic setting. So a Spirit roll just doen't cut it!

(That reminds me of my disappointment regarding the missing Guts skill in Weird Wars II - a setting, where there could be NO alternative to a Guts skill at all!)



And no Fate Chips? - Why? Oh, why? - In DL:R the Fate Chips are used without any problem for quite a few years and two editions of the DL:R books.

HoE is a postapocalypitic Sci-Fi-Western-Horror-Crossover. - Why should HoE use those plain old (and compared to the Fate Chips quite lame!) Bennies?


I know, that both issues, Guts skill and Fate Chips, could be "re-introduced" by houseruling it. But it should not be necessary to use a houserule regarding such unique, even defining elements of any Deadlands setting!

I strongly hope Pinnacle reconsiders the recent tendency to drop the Guts skill (especially in Horror settings).
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ashenwolf
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

love pretty much everything in the book.

Junkers use junk, Templars got a shot in the arm, doomsayers cut back alittle but still feel right and so on. (they all use the powers from the core savage book with a few additions)

Car modification check, scavaging table added, good selection of critters.

surprised by witches and cyborgs as well but it mentions using the smith and robards catalog. While i think the tech would have advanced, if you consider there is no infrastructure for the tech the average ware would probably be equivalent to the older stuff. So maybe a denver book or something later on will have some more advanced ware.

witches, hucksters, shaman, blessed and so on can use the reloaded rules, much like classic did. Rare but around if you really really want to. (not mentioned in the book though so the assumption is not around at all.)

I prefer fate chips but easy enough to use anyway so not really an issue. just depends on how gritty you want the game to be.
I like the change to guts. still takes an investment but doesn't get in the way of your character concept early on.


the only thing i don't like is the mutation table, its rather sparse in some ways, very very few utility mutations no claws or photosynthesis for example.
In other ways its better since the mutation description is left up to the gm/player. Maybe in a future source book some of the other things will be added back in.
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Thunderforge
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashenwolf wrote:
witches, hucksters, shaman, blessed and so on can use the reloaded rules, much like classic did. Rare but around if you really really want to. (not mentioned in the book though so the assumption is not around at all.)

Witches weren't in Deadlands Reloaded. And you're right, unlike Classic, they didn't mention using the Deadlands ABs in Hell on Earth Reloaded (a quick PDF search reveals that the only mention is the entry on the Space Needle which says that exorcising Steinbrueck's ghost requires "a Blessed from the Weird West").
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UndeadParrot
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was writing up my own conversion of HoE, I already feared that they'd have to leave out at least part of the ABs, unless they wanted to really, really simplify 'em.

So, yeah: Hoping to see one or two expansions in the near future, that cover all bases.

BTW: does anybody know if there's a preview available somewhere? Perhaps three or four pages along with a table of contents?

Templars: do they use Power Points now, do they work like Blessed from DL:R, or are there completely different mechanics?

General consensus? Worth picking up, or should I just stay with my green books/own conversion? Because, so far I have heard some things I'd definitely have to houserule (Guts, Fate Chips, Tale Telling).
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PlatinumWarlock
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm actually ok with the lack of Guts--I actually house ruled it out of my ongoing "The Flood campaign, as it feels like a character tax to me. That said, I have frequent Fear tests and I don't exactly go easy on the players with the monsters I've been throwing at them. Making them spend skill points on Guts just feels like penalizing them unnecessarily.

I was, however, shocked to see the Fate Chips concept go away--I'm guessing that this is to provide a little more verisimilitude to base SW Deluxe. The book explanation for this (and the removal of Guts, for that matter) was that things are rougher on heroes, but they're not as scared as monsters are part of daily life. Hell, you can even start the game as a Harrowed in this edition!

Witches were pretty weakly supported in the previous release, so I'm not surprised to see them getting left out this time around. The cyborg rules from Smith and Robards were really sweet, though they took up a good deal of space; I can see why they got referenced and not reprinted.

I was, however, shocked to see that toxic shamans made it in! While I wasn't really high on them in classic HoE, I rather like this spin on them, particularly with their companion edge. Having a little ball of radiation or a trash buddy is pretty cool!

Any thoughts on the post-Unity developments?
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Tequila Jones
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, everyone keeps writing about the game mechanics but how does it look story-wise? Is there a lot of new story/setting information reaching beyond The Unity and Epitaph#4? Any major changes or mostly recycled inforrmation?
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Fuzyfeet
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If your looking for impressions on the system add its changes skip this post, I'm comment more on the story changes.

Not being a SW fan (I still use Classic and even convert other system to Classic) most of the book is a wash for me (I knew this going in, but it didn't stop me from dropping the $60 to pre-order). I'll comment pretty much on the setting, I'm not one to bash SW, I think it's designed well for what it is meant for (Fast, Furious, Fun) but I like my meat on the bone.

I bought it to get the updated setting, and with one quick read through of the player's section (still need to read the Marshal's so bare that in mind while I rant) there doesn't seem to be much. It mentioned that the Harvest (Unity adventure) took place in 2096 and that the setting is now 2099. They made sure to note where Classic players would read the post Unity info, it wasn't that detailed, nor did it seem to fill in a 3 year gap.

Now I did find that there was more detail in general. Specifically the Last War. It looks like they took all the info that has been collected throughout the supplements and condensed it into the HoE:R, but also added in bits that I don't remember ever getting (like the exact time the first bomb was launched, or who launched first). We got a list of who was aligned with who in Classic, but HoE:R went into a lot more detail, most of which I loved. They also made sure to mention some of the outcomes of the major metaplot adventures (Boise Horror in particular) besides the Unity adventure without saying "this was from Bla Bla adventure".

Skimming the book I was pleased that they included many creatures from MM&M, the legion of different Automatons and other Combine nasties (from the Denver book) as well as all the staples from HoE core book and Wasted West.

All in all I figured a lot of the story was going to be sparse or left out, after all this is the core book. It's meant to give you enough of the setting to know the key points, but it's really here for the system. So while I may seem disappointed, I'm not. I've always admired everyone at Pinnacle for their settings and I bought this book (not just cuz I own every DL, HoE & LC book save for Back East: North [only because I still can'e find a physical copy]) but because I want to support the setting and look forward to the new Wasted West book (what ever it will be called) and more HoE in general.[/b]
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PlatinumWarlock
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Story advances about 3 Year's beyond the events of Unity, with the Battle of the Worms taking up a significant section. While the actual Reckoners are no longer on Earth (the events in Unity were apparently successful in that regard), servitors still roam round and are still dangerous.

Throckmorton and the Combine are no longer quite as dangerous as the Battle of the Worms took out many of their most powerful weapons and machines. However, the AI in Denver still has control and is still a force to be reckoned with.

The area surrounding Deadwood is now a no-tech zone, following the events of The Last Sons.

The Librarians are really gearing up for something big, it seems, and the Cult of Doom is as fractioned as ever.

Oh, and both Raven and Hellstrome are still around. Little mention of Stone, though...curiously enough...
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ashenwolf
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Presentation is good as well. Some great new pieces of art and a well organized layout from what i see so far. No pre made characters, but the removal of guts makes the archetype packages in the core easy to use.
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wmarshal
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a copy yet, but I'm down with the removal of Guts. I think of Guts as appropriate to a setting where horror may play an important part o the setting, but the terrors are considered rare/non-existent by society at large. I think almost Everybody left alive in HoE would be aware and psychologically adjusted to the fact that their worst fears and nightmares have be become a reality. They can still get scared, but instead of a subset of people developing a separate Guts skill everyone's resistance is based off of their basic Spirit + edges, etc.

On the other hand, I'd be confused if ETU winds up not using Guts.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys, a few notes...

First, it's 2097 not 2099. That was my flub. It's only been about six months or so since the Unity stuff.

The scrapper rules are not Cyborg rules. Two different things.

Guts and Bennies. Yeah, the book explains why, and someone already hit on it. You don't have to learn to fight fear when you live with it every day (same reason it isn't used in Weird Wars). And it's a harsher place, so fate isn't as on your side (unless you're a blessed or chosen Templar).

I figured it would be pretty clear that an Operation Damocles soldier who "has just woken up to find himself in a strange new world" wouldn't be able to take Veteran o' the Wasted West, but perhaps it needs to be specified.

Templars do use power points. There's actually a setting-based reason for it, but it got cut for space and clarity (explaining why a character type works different from how they did in books the majority of readers won't know about can be confusing).

Try to catch up on others later if I missed anything.
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shinryu
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so on the 'borgs (for i do love my cyborgs...); is the plan roughly to have them use Smith and Robards rules, maybe adding in rules of engagement ala Super Karma for more points? Is that a roughly adequate hack in the meantime? Or are they some other beast entirely ruleswise? (Actually, I could see the slot system from SciFiTK working nicely, and as that is supposedly coming soon...)

So excited this is out. Going to snag it as soon as I'm off work.
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vaganardi
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just skimmed so far, no Guts skill is OK, I've often considered dropping it from Deadlands and using spirit (all guts modifiers now add to spirit roll) With only 15 skill points buying guts takes a chunk of skill points that can seldom be spared when developing a character. Grit is how you learn to deal with fear in Deadlands. And few character types tend to go much beyond a D6 to D8 for spirit at the start of a campaign so its not overpowering.

No Fate chips, Hmmmmm, I hadn't seen that yet, I like fate chips, it boosts PCs a little, but I just compensate by throwing more S--T in the fan for them, fun for everyone. Again itís a group and GM thing, remember - House rules are OK, its Savage worlds, FUN comes first so make your decisions based on your group.

The mutation list is thin because the player and GM decide how to define the effects. Itís a hindrance, not a super power. You might get lucky but the odds are against it. Radiation in Hell on Earth wonít make you a super hero, it will leave you diseased, twisted and deformed. Itís a curse, not a power. Otherwise it would be an edge. Later they may create an edge for mutation as a power, but I donít think we need it.

One thing I saw I'm not keen on is Harrowed as an edge, I'm not sure I'll allow it. (have to think on it some) I like my harrowed the old fashion way. A last chance for a dead PC to keep going and have their death turned into a unliving nightmare.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Demonicuss Krinn wrote:
Re: Witches - yeah, kinda sad to see 'em not mentioned. Also not mentioned, Cyborgs. Which is kinda odd, as you'd think they'd be in there -(SPOILER) not to mention a certain NPC statted out has the fluff and crunch of cyborgs mentioned - it talked about Rules of Engagement and Cyborg Chassies. Maybe they dropped due to time or booksize or soemthing. Hopefully they'll be introduced later on.


Already in the works. HOE Reloaded is the core book for the setting, but a Companion is already planned to have the Plot Point Campaign plus more info on characters like Witches and Cyborgs.

You heard it here first! Unless you heard it somewhere else before. Wink
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ashenwolf
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

vaganardi wrote:

The mutation list is thin because the player and GM decide how to define the effects. Itís a hindrance, not a super power. You might get lucky but the odds are against it. Radiation in Hell on Earth wonít make you a super hero, it will leave you diseased, twisted and deformed. Itís a curse, not a power. Otherwise it would be an edge. Later they may create an edge for mutation as a power, but I donít think we need it.
.

I disagree, it will make you a diseased, twisted and deformed super hero if your lucky. All the crazy stuff in the old charts was most of the fun in classic.
Mutations are actually more of a mixed bag,regardless if they help you or not you have to deal with being a mutant. Mutation edges shift your odds to favorable.

It is very true that leaving it open to more interpretation is less restrictive in many cases. It just doesn't currently cover the more gonzo good/bad mutations as well as i would like for other cases. So i hope to see it expanded later. But i have the old books so i can add them in easy enough with the new chart as a guide
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DrErikSpangler
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm kinda disappointed that the Plot Point campaign isn't in the main book. But my brain is already working some ideas to tide my group over until then.

Now back to the reading...
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Yondalor
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks great! I'm fine with the change from Guts to Spirit, and the absence of Fate Chips since they explained it reasonably (in my opinion). Looks like the developers were on the same lines of thought with me on buying and selling gear and the Law Dog edge, as I have been discussing similar homebrew rules with my group.

I was kinda hoping Templar powers would be implemented through Edges, but I can live with the system. Still, I noticed they have the Stun power, but their rules say they can only use it on themselves. Is this a typo? Anyway, I like the Junker rules. Can't wait to test them in-game. Very Happy

The only dubious thing that caught my eye was the Harrowed Edge. I've learned to see edges as good things that give you bonuses and other fun stuff, so when I saw it I thought "Where's the fun in that?". I guess some people will see it as "I get to be undead! Frack yeah!", but I felt it somewhat cheapened the horror of being an undead abomination who could lose control at any moment. It's a decent alternative when there's no possibility of getting Mysterious Past during character creation, but I'm still unsure of it.

Regardless, I squeed like a little girl while reading the book. The Wasted West is full of possibilities, and I'm Marshaling my Posse there. Cool
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Fuzyfeet
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Hi guys, a few notes...

First, it's 2097 not 2099. That was my flub. It's only been about six months or so since the Unity stuff.

Is that going to be fixed in the printed version?
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