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[DLR] Removing Power Points from Hucksters

 
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Erifnogard
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: [DLR] Removing Power Points from Hucksters Reply with quote

A large part of the flavor of Hucksters for me is the Deal with the Devil casting procedure. Frankly I dislike power points in general but really dislike having both mechanics in the same arcane background. So as I think the Deal with the Devil rules are the meat (so to speak) of the Huckster's rules, I want to drop power points and have all Huckster spells require Dealing with the Devil.

That having been said, I don't want to completely change the dynamic of the Huckster and I think having some degree of assurance that you can get a few spells off in relative safety is a valuable part of the profession. My thought is that a Huckster could draw a 'hole card' at the beginning of the session in place of each 5 power points he would have had. These could be used at any time with his normal draw for casting but do not replenish until the next session. This also has the advantage of keeping the power edges useful.

-Edited to remove my rules reading fail driven skill drivel and to add the following:

One thing I have considered to make up for some of the loss of certainty is that you don't declare the exact point cost you are aiming for but instead see how many points you are able to muster with your draw and then choose the options on your power. I'm pretty iffy about this idea though as it takes a lot of the gambling out of the Deal with the Devil.

Anyway, any opinions?
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catalac
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

with anything 6 power points or less you still need the skill to see if the spell works. as for your idea i'm sure it would work fine but i can't help but think you hate your huckster. although then again unless you make it clear that magic is a sin to most folk hucksters tend to be over powered so hate away Twisted Evil
walks away from the magic blast vary slowly while putting on sun glasses Cool
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Erifnogard
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catalac wrote:
with anything 6 power points or less you still need the skill to see if the spell works. as for your idea i'm sure it would work fine but i can't help but think you hate your huckster. although then again unless you make it clear that magic is a sin to most folk hucksters tend to be over powered so hate away Twisted Evil
walks away from the magic blast vary slowly while putting on sun glasses Cool


Hmm, you know somehow I've been misreading that chart and not realizing you still needed to roll. I blame the several year hiatus from playing and the fact that I haven't actually GMed Deadlands before, only played. Razz Well, ignore my babbling about the skill roll part then. And I definitely don't hate the huckster! The goal of this isn't to cripple the class just ditch tracking power points and use the more flavorful casting option. I'm seeking feedback on this idea trying to avoid making them unplayable so any thoughts are definitely welcome!
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skylion
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There always has to be a catch. The Spellcasting, or Arcane Skill roll is a given, and cannot be avoided.

But, if you want a system that gets rid of power points, but has some certainty to it in the face of the Deal With the Devil, than it should rely on skill: something they have to invest in.

Knowledge: Occult.

The Huckster has as many "safe" PP to spend as half his/her Knowledge Occult die type.

But, a Knowledge Occut roll must be made before the Spellcasting or Arcane Skill roll. This slows him down a turn, and it has him invest in a skill at the expense of other useful skills. It might make up for the "free" PP.

This needs a limit, so you can make that a "once per session" rule, with Edges to bump it to twice a session if need be, or whatever other system you feel provides a proper limit.
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GranFalloon
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Er... by my reading, the Huckster does not usually need to roll Spellcasting.

Ahem.

Deadlands Reloaded, 'Dealing with the Devil,' second paragraph wrote:
Dealing with the Devil is a free and instant action, and largely replaces the usual Spellcasting roll.


Deadlands Reloaded, 'The Good the Bad and the Ugly' wrote:
If the Huckster's hand beats he number of Power Points needed to cast the hex, he's won his bargain with the manitou. The hex goes off as he'd hoped. Depending on the power he's using, he may still have to roll to hit, or to figure out the result of his hex, but the power points are paid by the manitou.


So if he's casting a Bolt, and gets the PP, a bolt is made, but he still needs to roll to see if he hits. But if he's casting Light, and gets the PP, the light is made, and he doesn't need to roll.

Bear in mind, though, I'm using the older edition of DL:R, so things may have changed when they split it into two books.


Okay, all that aside, I like the idea. I don't like tracking power points much at all, but the Deadlands AB's are pretty intricately linked to them. I would need to play around with this idea to see how well it works. I suck at estimating odds, so I don't know how often those extra hole cards will save the fellow's bacon.
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catalac
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well as i said it should work but it will increase them rolling on the back lash charts (which seriously seriously sucks) which results in the above mentioned magical explosion. in my experience this happens often enough in my campaigns because i tend to make it so the characters have weeks off in game then have them run into lots of trouble in one hellish unending night in which they face over 30 bad guys in three sessions in game time of less then 4 hours unless they have the sagebrush and starlight adventure card it tends to make them start dealing with the devil just to save their lives(which is the only reason a normal person would.) it tends to make it so taking whateley blood seems like a good idea and of course all sorts of different problems come with being a whateley.
so yeah dealing with the devil is the meat of hucksters but they probably don't need help doing it. (but then again this rant only applies if your evil like me and don't let your heroes sleep between sessions.)
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Erifnogard
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GranFalloon wrote:
Er... by my reading, the Huckster does not usually need to roll Spellcasting.
---snip, snip--
So if he's casting a Bolt, and gets the PP, a bolt is made, but he still needs to roll to see if he hits. But if he's casting Light, and gets the PP, the light is made, and he doesn't need to roll.


-edit to update response based on doing something drastic and actually consulting the books. LOL
Ok, dug out my DLR Player's Guide and according to page 83 you do have to roll Spellcasting for anything less than a flush and may have to for flush or higher if you need a hit roll or opposed roll. So I guess it did change when they split the book.

Quote:
Okay, all that aside, I like the idea. I don't like tracking power points much at all, but the Deadlands AB's are pretty intricately linked to them. I would need to play around with this idea to see how well it works. I suck at estimating odds, so I don't know how often those extra hole cards will save the fellow's bacon.


I generally hate tracking points/number of spells per day/etc as it feels to mechanical for a magic system which is why I'm kicking this around. I'm pretty bad at figuring odds myself which is one of the reasons I was putting this on here for feedback. I'm probably going to try this though. I figure if it's too harsh I can just fiddle with the number of hole cards you get, I only picked 1 per 5 PP because you get 5 PP with each power point edge.
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Erifnogard
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

catalac wrote:
well as i said it should work but it will increase them rolling on the back lash charts (which seriously seriously sucks) which results in the above mentioned magical explosion.
---snippage


-edit in light of reading the huckster skill rules
I'm open to looking at ideas to keep the back lash from getting too out of hand but I'm hoping that the hole card mechanic will help enough.
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Erifnogard
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skylion wrote:
The Huckster has as many "safe" PP to spend as half his/her Knowledge Occult die type.


I don't see how this gets away from using PP. I don't want to track PP at all and part of the point here is also to NOT allow bypassing Deal with the Devil.
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GranFalloon
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another solution is to fiddle with the Backfire table. Rather than a swingy d20 roll, it could be 2d10 or something, where the middle effects aren't too bad, but they get pretty unpleasant out toward the ends. And/or add or subtract a number based on how close the character came to the necessary PP.
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steelbrok
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hucksters tend to be (or disguise themselves as) gamblers and so depend on their luck. that being so I suggest this:

Hucksters may treat their bennies as semi-permanent power points. Every benny they currently have represents a power point, so a Huckster with 3PP can cast spells up to 3PP as long as he doesn't spend a beny on anything else.

As he uses his bennies his inherent PP decrease (down to 1PP can only cast 1PP spells this way)

Whenever he wants to cast a spell using more PP than he has bennies he must Deal with the Devil
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Erifnogard
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GranFalloon wrote:
Another solution is to fiddle with the Backfire table. Rather than a swingy d20 roll, it could be 2d10 or something, where the middle effects aren't too bad, but they get pretty unpleasant out toward the ends. And/or add or subtract a number based on how close the character came to the necessary PP.


I think this is worth exploring. I prefer an even more bell curved result so I think 4d6 with the good results in the middle of the result curve and bad results at the high and low extremes.

One other thing that comes to mind is make the roll a d6 (or maybe 2d6) that can explode so usually you'll end up in the lower half of the table but you could end up working your way all the way up. This has the advantage of not requiring reworking the table.

-edited for my grammar challenged writing and insane spelling.
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Erifnogard
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelbrok wrote:
Hucksters tend to be (or disguise themselves as) gamblers and so depend on their luck. that being so I suggest this:

Hucksters may treat their bennies as semi-permanent power points. Every benny they currently have represents a power point, so a Huckster with 3PP can cast spells up to 3PP as long as he doesn't spend a beny on anything else.

As he uses his bennies his inherent PP decrease (down to 1PP can only cast 1PP spells this way)

Whenever he wants to cast a spell using more PP than he has bennies he must Deal with the Devil


This would work for the purpose of eliminating PP tracking but would seriously discourage the Hucksters players from using their bennies and me from ever giving them additional ones.

Also as I said, I want them to be Dealing with the Devil, though I am trying to dampen the hazard a little on at least some of their casting with the hole cards.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erifnogard wrote:
GranFalloon wrote:
Er... by my reading, the Huckster does not usually need to roll Spellcasting.
---snip, snip--
So if he's casting a Bolt, and gets the PP, a bolt is made, but he still needs to roll to see if he hits. But if he's casting Light, and gets the PP, the light is made, and he doesn't need to roll.


-edit to update response based on doing something drastic and actually consulting the books. LOL
Ok, dug out my DLR Player's Guide and according to page 83 you do have to roll Spellcasting for anything less than a flush and may have to for flush or higher if you need a hit roll or opposed roll. So I guess it did change when they split the book.


It got added in the second printing, but it's been in the errata for 6 years now.

Erifnogard wrote:
Also as I said, I want them to be Dealing with the Devil, though I am trying to dampen the hazard a little on at least some of their casting with the hole cards.


Sidenote here: have you checked to see if that's what the players want?

You really don't want to do all this work to be met with, "Sorry, but we liked the old system, so none of us want to play a huckster now."

If they are cool with it, I'd suggest just giving them a "safety net" for lower cost hexes. Something like...

If the number of PPs the huckster uses is equal to or less than half their Spirit, then Backfire isn't rolled, but automatically causes one level of Fatigue that can be recovered in 15 minutes.

In essence, they get the best possible Backfire result if the PP cost is Spirit/2 or less.

Maybe even add in a...

A huckster makes a Spellcasting roll before Dealing with the Devil. If he gets a raise on this roll and suffers Backfire, he can adjust the result up or down one level. If the Backfire result would be a level of Fatigue, the huckster is merely Shaken instead.

So with a raise on a cheap power, Backfire is only going to cause a Shaken.

Again though, whatever system is used has to work for all the players (even the ones who aren't playing a huckster, perhaps especially them).
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Erifnogard
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erifnogard wrote:
Also as I said, I want them to be Dealing with the Devil, though I am trying to dampen the hazard a little on at least some of their casting with the hole cards.


Quote:
Sidenote here: have you checked to see if that's what the players want?

You really don't want to do all this work to be met with, "Sorry, but we liked the old system, so none of us want to play a huckster now."


I only have one player who would play a Huckster and he is on board with getting rid of power points. Basically tracking them is a drag on both the fast and the fun aspects of SW for us.

Quote:
If they are cool with it, I'd suggest just giving them a "safety net" for lower cost hexes. Something like...

If the number of PPs the huckster uses is equal to or less than half their Spirit, then Backfire isn't rolled, but automatically causes one level of Fatigue that can be recovered in 15 minutes.

In essence, they get the best possible Backfire result if the PP cost is Spirit/2 or less.

Maybe even add in a...

A huckster makes a Spellcasting roll before Dealing with the Devil. If he gets a raise on this roll and suffers Backfire, he can adjust the result up or down one level. If the Backfire result would be a level of Fatigue, the huckster is merely Shaken instead.

So with a raise on a cheap power, Backfire is only going to cause a Shaken.


This sounds promising though I would have that roll be after your attempt to Deal with the Devil as if you successfully Deal you don't always need a roll. No point in rolling unnecessarily.

Quote:
Again though, whatever system is used has to work for all the players (even the ones who aren't playing a huckster, perhaps especially them).


I don't anticipate this being a problem, though of course it will be discussed as a setting rule before we play and any heartburn addressed. We've been playing together for a very long time, including a five plus year run of classic Deadlands some years ago so I have a pretty good feel for what everybody is cool with.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erifnogard wrote:
This sounds promising though I would have that roll be after your attempt to Deal with the Devil as if you successfully Deal you don't always need a roll. No point in rolling unnecessarily.


Nope, as pointed out in the errata and the most recent printings, there is always a roll. Dealing with the Devil just covers replacing the points, the skill roll still has to be made (with the potential for Backlash).

Only if the character gets a Flush or better is success automatic, and that should still be determined after the roll is made as success doesn't mean Backlash can't still occur (same way Backlash can occur even if the Wild Die succeeds).

Now, it would mean that even if the huckster failed the roll, they could still draw and hope for the Flush or better, but I wouldn't simply give them a pass on the roll.
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Erifnogard
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, now I understand. So yes, definitely skill roll first then.
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