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The Limited Use mod, and why it's not two separate mods?

 
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shinryu
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:04 pm    Post subject: The Limited Use mod, and why it's not two separate mods? Reply with quote

So this has bugged me about the Limited Use modifier for a bit; there seems like a lot of cases where one or the other effect is appropriate for a power, but not really both: e.g.

1) My combat drugs give me Super Strength or Growth and take a few seconds to do what they do, but they don't wear off for quite a while (so 1d6 rounds start up time is quite good, but not the duration)

2) I only have so many missiles in the pack or charges in my magical wand, and then I'm out till i can reload/sacrifice another virgin (so 1d6+5 rounds is appropriate, but not the start up time. Also, might need to be a fixed number since there's no real time limitation, unless that's the trapping and the amazing electroblaster fires up for ten seconds and then goes offline or something).

3) My combat drugs are giving me lots of Extra actions, but it's very hard on my otherwise mortal flesh; not really provided for as written, but you'd think a limited use trapping (inflicts fatigue every 1d6+5 rounds) would be a very useful option.

So I'm not sure I understand why the first two cases were combined, unless the thought was they just weren't individually inconvenient enough to justify a full power point off in cost. I'm inclined to think allowing at least case 2) and 3) as a separate one point off, assuming reloading is not possible for case 2). While I suppose you could consider that a special case of Requires Material, it seems like there are other powers it would be worthwhile for (only so many shots in the Contaigion injector, ablative Armor, etc.)
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: The Limited Use mod, and why it's not two separate mods? Reply with quote

shinryu wrote:
So this has bugged me about the Limited Use modifier for a bit...


Um, what "Limited Use" modifer? There's no such thing in the book that I know of (and I'd hope I would Wink).
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shinryu
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: The Limited Use mod, and why it's not two separate mods? Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
shinryu wrote:
So this has bugged me about the Limited Use modifier for a bit...


Um, what "Limited Use" modifer? There's no such thing in the book that I know of (and I'd hope I would Wink).


Sorry, meant Slow Activation. Don't know why I called it that, what I get for not looking at the book before I post. I guess it seems like it should be "Slow Activation" (1d6 rounds till it powers up, so like Requires Activation but worse) and "Limited Use" (1d6+5 rounds of use or uses, if it's not persistent round to round) rather than all part of Slow Activation.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: The Limited Use mod, and why it's not two separate mods? Reply with quote

shinryu wrote:
Clint wrote:
shinryu wrote:
So this has bugged me about the Limited Use modifier for a bit...


Um, what "Limited Use" modifer? There's no such thing in the book that I know of (and I'd hope I would Wink).


Sorry, meant Slow Activation. Don't know why I called it that, what I get for not looking at the book before I post. I guess it seems like it should be "Slow Activation" (1d6 rounds till it powers up, so like Requires Activation but worse) and "Limited Use" (1d6+5 rounds of use or uses, if it's not persistent round to round) rather than all part of Slow Activation.


Well, it's not a "Limited Uses" Modifier, meaning after activation it works for 1d6+5 consecutive rounds, not 1d6+5 separate rounds of use. The first is a slight limitation, the second isn't really a limitation at all.

The primary limitation to Slow Activation is the 1d6 rounds to start up. A fight could be over in 5 or 6 rounds.

But there's really another consideration here; Slow Activation is the only Modifier that is applied after the Device Modifier.

Consider one of the examples, 6 PPs in Armor. Device reduces it to 4, and Slow Activation reduces that to 3 because it is applied afterwards.

If the same power applied Requires Activation, it would occur before Device, reducing the cost to 5, which would then have a cost of 4 points with the Device Modifier applied.

So for players who build their Devices to take advantage of the breakpoint in cost (as many do) Slow Activation is actually saving them 2 PPs over 1 PP for Requires Activation (if even available for the power in question).

Most things like the examples above though would fall more under adjusting the power due to trappings not creating new Modifiers (though occasionally it might).

For instance, the trapping for a drug that gave 3 or 4 multiple powers might take 1d6 rounds to activate, but activate all the powers with a single action (instead of normally requiring an action per power). It might take less time or more, but on average its about the same, and they all kick in at the same time.
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shinryu
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I think I understand the logic of Slow activation vs. Requires Activation, though I'm not sure limiting it to just Device is necessary, honestly; it seems like a way to handle brief and nasty transformation abilities (you wouldn't like me when I'm angry... but it takes a second, and I'm only angry for a little while...). But the pricing structure makes sense.

I guess I just think there's still room for a generic power modifier that allows for relatively limited uses of a specific power, either in that it runs "out of ammo" or it's extremely fatiguing or actually damaging to use. Any of those is sufficiently limiting I'm not sure it's appropriate for just a trapping as opposed to a points break; the drug example is nicely balanced since you get multiple boosts activated simultaneously, so I'm on board there. However, aside from the obvious case of not being able to lug around an infinite supply of Mark II Really Little Boy subtactical nuclear grenades in my evil battlesuit and not being able to buy them at the corner store (hence, out of luck till I get back to the lair once I use up my supply), I could see an alchemist using the Invent power making a one shot potion, or similarly a straight mad scientist building an incredibly powerful but one-shot device ("we only get one shot at this, boys, so make that lightning bolt/teleport/whatever count), and right now there's not a good way to handle that in the SPC.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shinryu wrote:
So I think I understand the logic of Slow activation vs. Requires Activation, though I'm not sure limiting it to just Device is necessary, honestly; it seems like a way to handle brief and nasty transformation abilities (you wouldn't like me when I'm angry... but it takes a second, and I'm only angry for a little while...).


"30-Second Hulk" seems like a corner case to me, not something you see in comics except perhaps rarely. Those kind of things are best handled by the GM on a case-by-case basis.

shinryu wrote:
I guess I just think there's still room for a generic power modifier that allows for relatively limited uses of a specific power, either in that it runs "out of ammo" or it's extremely fatiguing or actually damaging to use. Any of those is sufficiently limiting I'm not sure it's appropriate for just a trapping as opposed to a points break; the drug example is nicely balanced since you get multiple boosts activated simultaneously, so I'm on board there. However, aside from the obvious case of not being able to lug around an infinite supply of Mark II Really Little Boy subtactical nuclear grenades in my evil battlesuit and not being able to buy them at the corner store (hence, out of luck till I get back to the lair once I use up my supply), I could see an alchemist using the Invent power making a one shot potion, or similarly a straight mad scientist building an incredibly powerful but one-shot device ("we only get one shot at this, boys, so make that lightning bolt/teleport/whatever count), and right now there's not a good way to handle that in the SPC.


To me, every example there seems like a perfect description of using trappings as designed (the one confusing part being the "straight mad scientist" since the SPC doesn't really seem to apply at all in that case). Each one describes limiting a power's use in order to increase it's effect beyond listed capabilities where the specific increased effects could all be very different. That's the kind of thing trappings excel at.

"Mark II Really Little Boy subtactical nuclear grenades" = Limited uses per session grants increase die type to damage. Say 4 grenades do a d10 for damage instead of d6.

Invent a one-shot potion - Using it counts as "destroying" the device and for that you get X effect or effects like multiple powers counting as one action or extended duration.

The one-shot teleport device - Might also count as "destroyed" but could teleport multiple people over distances measured in miles instead of inches.

To handle all those cases through pure rules would require an entire different power construction paradigm more akin to M&M, HERO, or GURPS, and that's not our goal.

Thing is, I'm not saying Limited Uses couldn't be handled by a Modifier, just that's a decision for the individual GM on the same case-by-case basis as trappings. If the player is looking for a limitation with no benefits from it at all, then a Modifier may be the perfect choice. That just didn't seem to apply in the examples given as I saw them.
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