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culsandar
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Joined: 17 May 2012
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 Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:27 am Post subject: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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Basing on the rule layout I asked for here: http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36349
Is quick draw worth taking first over ambidexterity or two-fisted?
Example 1; Gunslinger with two pistols and quick draw declaring 2 actions every round.
1a.) Draw both pistols (for free, with agility test).
1b.) Fire both pistols (MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH).
2a.) Fire both pistols (MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH).
3a.) Etc.
Example 2; Gunslinger with two pistols and Ambidexterity declaring 3 actions first round, two actions after.
1a.) Draw both pistols (with agility test).
1b.) Fire both pistols (MH -4 for 2xMAP, OH -4 for 2xMAP)
2a.) Fire both pistols (MH -2 for MAP, OH -2 for MAP)
3a.) Etc.
Example 3; Gunslinger with two pistols and Two Fisted declaring 3 actions first round, two actions after.
1a.) Draw both pistols (with agility test)
1b.) Fire both pistols (MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
2a.) Fire both pistols (MH +0, OH -2 for OH)
3a.) Etc.
From a mathematical standpoint, it seems Quick Draw is less effective a perk as the other two when it would seem Quick Draw is the first thing you would take. Granted, having all three is mighty strong, but you cannot start with all three.
Comparing against Quick Draw; Ambidexterity is worse the first round, and better the following rounds. Two Fisted is the same first round, and better the following rounds.
It appears Two Fisted is the superior choice for the two weapon fighter, even over Ambidexterity.  |
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newForumNewName
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:54 am Post subject: |
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It depends on your strategy. If you like to be the first one to get a hit in, then Quick Draw is a good first choice.
Mechanically, they are all about equal.
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Clint
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| culsandar wrote: | | From a mathematical standpoint, it seems Quick Draw is less effective a perk as the other two when it would seem Quick Draw is the first thing you would take. Granted, having all three is mighty strong, but you cannot start with all three. |
Why can't you start with all three? Are you not playing a human?
If you are...
Free Edge + 2 Edges from Hindrance Points covers all three of them.
The character would need a d4 in one Attribute to up Agility to d8, but that's the requirement for all three Edges, so you're covered on all of them.
To go back to the question, if we presume this is Deadlands or a western game based on it, then the character with two pistols would likely have double actions (since he can't fan the hammer) and double tap. That means after 3 rounds, he's out of ammo. He either has to reload (which is a separate action for each pistol) or he could drop those guns and draw two new ones.
Another couple of things to consider...
Quick Draw grants a +2 to the Agility roll to draw two weapons in addition to making it a free action. That means (barring outside penalties like wounds), it would only fail on a critical failure. Without it, the character has a much higher chance of failing to draw the weapons, which means no attacks that round.
Quick Draw can also make a difference if someone gets into close combat with the gunslinger. The pistols are at best improvised weapons inflicting a -1 to Parry. If the gunslinger can drop one pistol and draw a bowie knife as a free action (with no roll since it's one weapon), he just made himself harder to hit and still gets two attacks at no penalty for drawing the weapon.
Again, just some things to consider.
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culsandar
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Joined: 17 May 2012
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| Clint wrote: | Why can't you start with all three? Are you not playing a human?
If you are...
Free Edge + 2 Edges from Hindrance Points covers all three of them.
The character would need a d4 in one Attribute to up Agility to d8, but that's the requirement for all three Edges, so you're covered on all of them. |
Conceivably you could, but at a sacrifice for other things. I don't mind buying them with raises, I was just doing math on which order to prioritize them.
| Clint wrote: | | To go back to the question, if we presume this is Deadlands or a western game based on it, then the character with two pistols would likely have double actions (since he can't fan the hammer) and double tap. That means after 3 rounds, he's out of ammo. He either has to reload (which is a separate action for each pistol) or he could drop those guns and draw two new ones. |
Sure. But that scenario doesn't change the layout above, it just repeats it.
| Clint wrote: | | Quick Draw grants a +2 to the Agility roll to draw two weapons in addition to making it a free action. That means (barring outside penalties like wounds), it would only fail on a critical failure. Without it, the character has a much higher chance of failing to draw the weapons, which means no attacks that round. |
This specifically is the only thing that makes me hesitant about taking Quick Draw last. The character obviously has a strong Agility, but that roll is not "unfailable" by any means.
| Clint wrote: | | Quick Draw can also make a difference if someone gets into close combat with the gunslinger. The pistols are at best improvised weapons inflicting a -1 to Parry. If the gunslinger can drop one pistol and draw a bowie knife as a free action (with no roll since it's one weapon), he just made himself harder to hit and still gets two attacks at no penalty for drawing the weapon. |
The math above still applies with Two Fisted though. That turn you could drop a gun, draw the knife, and attack with knife and pistol that turn with Two-Fisted at the same penalty as Quick Draw, and the following round continue to fight with both at a much lower penalty than if I had Quick Draw alone.
| Clint wrote: | | Again, just some things to consider. |
Thank you for the discussion! It's nice to have such conversations with actual people who have influence over rules! |
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newForumNewName
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Joined: 22 Oct 2010
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Location: Broomfield, CO
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| culsandar wrote: | | Clint wrote: | Why can't you start with all three? Are you not playing a human?
If you are...
Free Edge + 2 Edges from Hindrance Points covers all three of them.
The character would need a d4 in one Attribute to up Agility to d8, but that's the requirement for all three Edges, so you're covered on all of them. |
Conceivably you could, but at a sacrifice for other things. I don't mind buying them with raises, I was just doing math on which order to prioritize them. |
That's the point. Nobody starts with everything. And there is no mathematically superior option.
| culsander wrote: | | Clint wrote: | | To go back to the question, if we presume this is Deadlands or a western game based on it, then the character with two pistols would likely have double actions (since he can't fan the hammer) and double tap. That means after 3 rounds, he's out of ammo. He either has to reload (which is a separate action for each pistol) or he could drop those guns and draw two new ones. |
Sure. But that scenario doesn't change the layout above, it just repeats it. |
Not really. It illustrates how in a longer fight, the gunslinger will spend two round reloading or will have to pack many, many pistols, which starts to weigh the gunslinger down with encumbrance.
| culsander wrote: | | Clint wrote: | | Quick Draw grants a +2 to the Agility roll to draw two weapons in addition to making it a free action. That means (barring outside penalties like wounds), it would only fail on a critical failure. Without it, the character has a much higher chance of failing to draw the weapons, which means no attacks that round. |
This specifically is the only thing that makes me hesitant about taking Quick Draw last. The character obviously has a strong Agility, but that roll is not "unfailable" by any means. |
Any way you look at it, you'll be taking a penalty on your attacks until you have all three.
| culsander wrote: | | Clint wrote: | | Quick Draw can also make a difference if someone gets into close combat with the gunslinger. The pistols are at best improvised weapons inflicting a -1 to Parry. If the gunslinger can drop one pistol and draw a bowie knife as a free action (with no roll since it's one weapon), he just made himself harder to hit and still gets two attacks at no penalty for drawing the weapon. |
The math above still applies with Two Fisted though. That turn you could drop a gun, draw the knife, and attack with knife and pistol that turn with Two-Fisted at the same penalty as Quick Draw, and the following round continue to fight with both at a much lower penalty than if I had Quick Draw alone. |
I don't think that you are taking all penalties into account.
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"While nFNN could be less of a jerk about how he says what he says, what he says is essentially correct." -- ValhallaGH |
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culsandar
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Joined: 17 May 2012
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| newForumNewName wrote: | | That's the point. Nobody starts with everything. And there is no mathematically superior option. |
I am aware. The point of the post was to determine which one to take first, not which one to take only. You misunderstand. The end result is to have all three, as indicated. And clearly there is a mathematically superior option, as indicated in the layout.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | Not really. It illustrates how in a longer fight, the gunslinger will spend two round reloading or will have to pack many, many pistols, which starts to weigh the gunslinger down with encumbrance. |
And this has what bearing on the discussion at hand in relation to Quick Draw vs. Ambidextrous? The gun will run out no matter what edge I use. Not really sure the point of this line. This thread is to merely discuss the weights of the individual edges, not how many times I have to reload? o.O
| newForumNewName wrote: | | Any way you look at it, you'll be taking a penalty on your attacks until you have all three. |
Again, this is obvious. By doing the layout like above I'm attempting to determine the best one to choose first to lower my penalty as much as possible. Again you think I only want to pick one. I want all three, I'm just trying to figure out which order to take them is the most optimized.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | I don't think that you are taking all penalties into account. |
How so? Tell me what I miss.
Example Clint; Gunslinger with two pistols, knife, and Two Fisted declaring 3 actions first and second round, two actions afterward.
1a.) Draw both pistols (1st action, with agility test)
1b.) Fire both pistols (2+3rd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
INT.) Opponent advances into melee.
2a.) Drop one pistol (free).
2b.) Draw knife (1st action).
2c.) Attack with knife/pistol (2+3rd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
3a.) Attack with knife/pistol (1+2nd action, MH +0, OH -2 for OH)
4a.) Etc.
vs.
Example Clint2; Gunslinger with two pistols, knife, and Quick Draw declaring 2 actions every round.
1a.) Draw both pistols (free action, with agility test)
1b.) Fire both pistols (1+2nd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
INT.) Opponent advances into melee.
2a.) Drop one pistol (free).
2b.) Draw knife (free action).
2c.) Attack with knife/pistol (1+2nd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
3a.) Attack with knife/pistol (1+2nd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
4a.) Etc.
It seems clear to me that on the turn you draw the weapons you have equal penalties. After those turns, Two Fisted has an obvious advantage. |
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newForumNewName
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Joined: 22 Oct 2010
Posts: 1781
Location: Broomfield, CO
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | That's the point. Nobody starts with everything. And there is no mathematically superior option. |
I am aware. The point of the post was to determine which one to take first, not which one to take only. You misunderstand. The end result is to have all three, as indicated. And clearly there is a mathematically superior option, as indicated in the layout. |
Actually, there isn't.
| culsander wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | Not really. It illustrates how in a longer fight, the gunslinger will spend two round reloading or will have to pack many, many pistols, which starts to weigh the gunslinger down with encumbrance. |
And this has what bearing on the discussion at hand in relation to Quick Draw vs. Ambidextrous? The gun will run out no matter what edge I use. Not really sure the point of this line. This thread is to merely discuss the weights of the individual edges, not how many times I have to reload? o.O |
Ambidextrous would be best to take first because it's a background edge and is easier to explain already having at character creation rather than taking it later.
| culsander wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | Any way you look at it, you'll be taking a penalty on your attacks until you have all three. |
Again, this is obvious. By doing the layout like above I'm attempting to determine the best one to choose first to lower my penalty as much as possible. Again you think I only want to pick one. I want all three, I'm just trying to figure out which order to take them is the most optimized. |
There isn't one.
| culsander wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | I don't think that you are taking all penalties into account. |
How so? Tell me what I miss.
Example Clint; Gunslinger with two pistols, knife, and Two Fisted declaring 3 actions first and second round, two actions afterward.
1a.) Draw both pistols (1st action, with agility test)
1b.) Fire both pistols (2+3rd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
INT.) Opponent advances into melee.
2a.) Drop one pistol (free).
2b.) Draw knife (1st action).
2c.) Attack with knife/pistol (2+3rd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
3a.) Attack with knife/pistol (1+2nd action, MH +0, OH -2 for OH)
4a.) Etc.
vs.
Example Clint2; Gunslinger with two pistols, knife, and Quick Draw declaring 2 actions every round.
1a.) Draw both pistols (free action, with agility test)
1b.) Fire both pistols (1+2nd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
INT.) Opponent advances into melee.
2a.) Drop one pistol (free).
2b.) Draw knife (free action).
2c.) Attack with knife/pistol (1+2nd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
3a.) Attack with knife/pistol (1+2nd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
4a.) Etc.
It seems clear to me that on the turn you draw the weapons you have equal penalties. After those turns, Two Fisted has an obvious advantage. |
EDIT: Give me a few minutes.
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"I had a whole bunch of advice for you but got ninja'd by newForumNewName. I'd just do what he says." -- 77IM
"While nFNN could be less of a jerk about how he says what he says, what he says is essentially correct." -- ValhallaGH |
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culsandar
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Joined: 17 May 2012
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| newForumNewName wrote: | | Actually, there isn't. |
Math apparently disagrees with you, but you're entitled to your opinion.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | Ambidextrous would be best to take first because it's a background edge and is easier to explain already having at character creation rather than taking it later. |
Correct, but this doesn't answer what I quoted of you.
| Quote: | | And this has what bearing on the discussion at hand in relation to Quick Draw vs. Ambidextrous? The gun will run out no matter what edge I use. Not really sure the point of this line. |
| newForumNewName wrote: | | There isn't one. |
See above.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | I'll let someone else handle that. |
K. So when you said "I don't think that you are taking all penalties into account" you were guessing? o.O I'm not after an answer on the bottom of that line, that is my opinion; but you said my math was wrong. How so?
EDIT: Take your time. ^^ I'm curious what I'm missing. |
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newForumNewName
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | I don't think that you are taking all penalties into account. |
How so? Tell me what I miss. |
Sure
| culsander wrote: | Example Clint; Gunslinger with two pistols, knife, and Two Fisted declaring 3 actions first and second round, two actions afterward.
1a.) Draw both pistols (1st action, with agility test) |
You have to actually succeed.
| culsander wrote: | | 1b.) Fire both pistols (2+3rd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH) |
So we're assuming that every combat starts in short range?
| culsander wrote: | | INT.) Opponent advances into melee. |
And they don't attack because...?
| culsander wrote: | 2a.) Drop one pistol (free).
2b.) Draw knife (1st action).
2c.) Attack with knife/pistol (2+3rd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
3a.) Attack with knife/pistol (1+2nd action, MH +0, OH -2 for OH)
4a.) Etc. |
Leaving out that the enemies never do anything and nothing ever happens, but the contest is about shooting dummies that move up, sure.
| culsander wrote: | vs.
Example Clint2; Gunslinger with two pistols, knife, and Quick Draw declaring 2 actions every round.
1a.) Draw both pistols (free action, with agility test) |
An Agility test that only fails on snake eyes.
| culsander wrote: | | 1b.) Fire both pistols (1+2nd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH) |
Why fire both pistols? Just to fill the air with lead? This is the situation wherein short range is a benefit. No penalties on the attack roll for pistols and, with a good action card, means you get to shoot first and dive for cover before anyone else. As an aside, the Quick edge would be really complementary to Quick Draw.
| culsander wrote: | INT.) Opponent advances into melee.
2a.) Drop one pistol (free).
2b.) Draw knife (free action).
2c.) Attack with knife/pistol (1+2nd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH) |
No reason to take the multi-action penalty. You stand a better chance of hitting with a single strike or shot. The real reason to have the knife out is to be able to use one's full Parry value.
| culsander wrote: | 3a.) Attack with knife/pistol (1+2nd action, MH -2 for MAP, OH -4 for MAP+OH)
4a.) Etc. |
Same applies.
| culsander wrote: | | It seems clear to me that on the turn you draw the weapons you have equal penalties. After those turns, Two Fisted has an obvious advantage. |
If all you ever do is back and forth, then Two-Fisted has a long-term advantage. If combat ever changes pace or tone, then Two-Fisted becomes about the same.
_________________
"I had a whole bunch of advice for you but got ninja'd by newForumNewName. I'd just do what he says." -- 77IM
"While nFNN could be less of a jerk about how he says what he says, what he says is essentially correct." -- ValhallaGH |
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culsandar
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Joined: 17 May 2012
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| newForumNewName wrote: | | You have to actually succeed. |
Correct. And I made note of this before as perhaps the only reason I wouldn't want to wait for Quick Draw. It has worse penalties for combat, but the success of this check is not always guaranteed.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | So we're assuming that every combat starts in short range? |
Irrelevant. We are comparing offensive edges using the same action, range penalizes them both equally. But for agreement's sake this scenario is the normal "Duel in the Street" in which you would start 30ish feet away from one another. Within short range.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | And they don't attack because...? |
Irrelevant. I'm sure they do, but it has no bearing on the comparison at hand.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | Leaving out that the enemies never do anything and nothing ever happens, but the contest is about shooting dummies that move up, sure. |
Irrelevant. Again, this is comparison of two offensive edges. Whatever the opponent would do would impact both edges equally, so there is no reason to include it.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | An Agility test that only fails on snake eyes. |
See above.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | Why fire both pistols? Just to fill the air with lead? This is the situation wherein short range is a benefit. No penalties on the attack roll for pistols and, with a good action card, means you get to shoot first and dive for cover before anyone else. As an aside, the Quick edge would be really complementary to Quick Draw. |
You could move to cover regardless of firing one weapon or two. Firing then running would still give you a MAP. And if you going to have a MAP, I'd rather use it firing to guns and drop my opponent than fire and run. I mean honestly, what a cowardly thing to do. 
| newForumNewName wrote: | | No reason to take the multi-action penalty. You stand a better chance of hitting with a single strike or shot. The real reason to have the knife out is to be able to use one's full Parry value. |
Making one attack at normal vs. Making two attacks with a MAP. That's the whole point of two weapon fighting, it's the choice you make. It is obvious that this is a dual weapon type of fighter, if I've paid for such edges why not use them?
| newForumNewName wrote: | | If all you ever do is back and forth, then Two-Fisted has a long-term advantage. If combat ever changes pace or tone, then Two-Fisted becomes about the same. |
So my math was correct then? All penalties accounted for? |
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newForumNewName
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Joined: 22 Oct 2010
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Location: Broomfield, CO
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | So we're assuming that every combat starts in short range? |
Irrelevant. We are comparing offensive edges using the same action, range penalizes them both equally. But for agreement's sake this scenario is the normal "Duel in the Street" in which you would start 30ish feet away from one another. Within short range. |
That's not an inclusive example. Not all combats will start that way and ranges are penalties.
| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | And they don't attack because...? |
Irrelevant. I'm sure they do, but it has no bearing on the comparison at hand. |
Because Wounds will never play a part in decisions in combat?
| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | Leaving out that the enemies never do anything and nothing ever happens, but the contest is about shooting dummies that move up, sure. |
Irrelevant. Again, this is comparison of two offensive edges. Whatever the opponent would do would impact both edges equally, so there is no reason to include it. |
Overly reducing the situation will lead to skewed results.
| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | An Agility test that only fails on snake eyes. |
See above. |
It's relevant.
| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | Why fire both pistols? Just to fill the air with lead? This is the situation wherein short range is a benefit. No penalties on the attack roll for pistols and, with a good action card, means you get to shoot first and dive for cover before anyone else. As an aside, the Quick edge would be really complementary to Quick Draw. |
You could move to cover regardless of firing one weapon or two. Firing then running would still give you a MAP. And if you going to have a MAP, I'd rather use it firing to guns and drop my opponent than fire and run. I mean honestly, what a cowardly thing to do. |
You can't move until your turn. You take fewer penalties firing one weapon in that scenario and probably won't hit with both. Your situation is flawed and incomplete for analysis.
| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | No reason to take the multi-action penalty. You stand a better chance of hitting with a single strike or shot. The real reason to have the knife out is to be able to use one's full Parry value. |
Making one attack at normal vs. Making two attacks with a MAP. That's the whole point of two weapon fighting, it's the choice you make. It is obvious that this is a dual weapon type of fighter, if I've paid for such edges why not use them? |
You aren't making a complete comparison. You are comparing using the same strategy with one edge versus without it. It isn't a complete comparison and is useless.
| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | If all you ever do is back and forth, then Two-Fisted has a long-term advantage. If combat ever changes pace or tone, then Two-Fisted becomes about the same. |
So my math was correct then? All penalties accounted for? |
No. You haven't taken into account:
a) multiple opponents
b) different ranges
c) opponent actions
d) potential wounds
e) comparing having an edge to not having an edge is a logical fallacy
I'm sure that there are others, but in short your analysis is incomplete and inconclusive. It lacks relevance and a complete picture. It's like first year physics: everything happens in a frictionless vacuum. Which is fine for learning the basics, but you're asking an advanced question which requires factoring those sorts of things in.
Best of luck.
_________________
"I had a whole bunch of advice for you but got ninja'd by newForumNewName. I'd just do what he says." -- 77IM
"While nFNN could be less of a jerk about how he says what he says, what he says is essentially correct." -- ValhallaGH |
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ogbendog
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Quick draw let's you ignore MAP when readying a weapon. How often will you do this? When not ready for combat, it'll happen on the first round. After that, it depends how often you switch weapons. If you don't have Rapid Reload, you might carry spare guns. If you go into melee, or need longer range/more damage, you might switch to a rifle. If you are disarmed while riding, you might not be able to pick it up off the ground very easily.
Two-weapon let's you ignore MAP when using two weapons. Again, how often will this come up? If you are attacked at longer ranges, or by a tougher foe, or are low on pistol ammo, you might want to use a rifle instead. If you need to use one hand on the reins, or are on a ladder, or holding a torch, you might only use one pistol.
But it had been my experience, that when dealing with guns, two weapon fighting comes up more than quick-draw. How often depends a bit on the GM, how often do they put you in unusual situations. |
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culsandar
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| newForumNewName wrote: | | That's not an inclusive example. Not all combats will start that way and ranges are penalties. |
| newForumNewName wrote: | | Because Wounds will never play a part in decisions in combat? |
| newForumNewName wrote: | | Overly reducing the situation will lead to skewed results. |
They both are affected equally, hence a lack of need for their inclusion. You are attempting to disprove my equation by adding variables that were not present when Clint set up the scenario.
1.) The opponent you are fighting apparently can reach you in one turn and attack, range is not a factor.
2.) They will, but this will not change the output of action. After the first turn when the weapons are out, Quick Draw has already given it's bonus. Two Fisted continues to give a bonus. When you become wounded and the penalties become to great to continue to make dual attacks effectively, how does Quick Draw aid you any more than Two Fisted?
| newForumNewName wrote: | | It's relevant. |
The 'see above' was in relation to my first line, where I talked about this Agility test.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | You can't move until your turn. You take fewer penalties firing one weapon in that scenario and probably won't hit with both. Your situation is flawed and incomplete for analysis. |
| newForumNewName wrote: | | You aren't making a complete comparison. You are comparing using the same strategy with one edge versus without it. It isn't a complete comparison and is useless. |
| newForumNewName wrote: | No. You haven't taken into account:
a) multiple opponents
b) different ranges
c) opponent actions
d) potential wounds
e) comparing having an edge to not having an edge is a logical fallacy
I'm sure that there are others, but in short your analysis is incomplete and inconclusive. It lacks relevance and a complete picture. It's like first year physics: everything happens in a frictionless vacuum. Which is fine for learning the basics, but you're asking an advanced question which requires factoring those sorts of things in.
Best of luck. |
You cannot be serious.
Clint made a specific scenario, to which I responded a specific equation. You claimed that my equation was incorrect.
I wrote out my equation, within the limits of the scenario, and asked you to prove it incorrect. You then state that I did not account for variables that were not only not within the scenario, but completely invalidate the scenario. And then claim my equation is inconclusive. My equation was in vacuum because the scenario was in vacuum.
Clint asked to solve for X, I solved for X, and you're highroading that I didn't solve for Y. Are you attempting to troll?
EDIT:
| ogbendog wrote: | Quick draw let's you ignore MAP when readying a weapon. How often will you do this? When not ready for combat, it'll happen on the first round. After that, it depends how often you switch weapons. If you don't have Rapid Reload, you might carry spare guns. If you go into melee, or need longer range/more damage, you might switch to a rifle. If you are disarmed while riding, you might not be able to pick it up off the ground very easily.
Two-weapon let's you ignore MAP when using two weapons. Again, how often will this come up? If you are attacked at longer ranges, or by a tougher foe, or are low on pistol ammo, you might want to use a rifle instead. If you need to use one hand on the reins, or are on a ladder, or holding a torch, you might only use one pistol.
But it had been my experience, that when dealing with guns, two weapon fighting comes up more than quick-draw. How often depends a bit on the GM, how often do they put you in unusual situations. |
Snuck that in there while I was writing.  They both have their merits, and I agree with your post, it really does depend on the scenarios you are in. I too find that I would get use out of one more so than the other generally. |
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newForumNewName
Heroic
Joined: 22 Oct 2010
Posts: 1781
Location: Broomfield, CO
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | That's not an inclusive example. Not all combats will start that way and ranges are penalties. |
| newForumNewName wrote: | | Because Wounds will never play a part in decisions in combat? |
| newForumNewName wrote: | | Overly reducing the situation will lead to skewed results. |
They both are affected equally, hence a lack of need for their inclusion. You are attempting to disprove my equation by adding variables that were not present when Clint set up the scenario.
1.) The opponent you are fighting apparently can reach you in one turn and attack, range is not a factor.
2.) They will, but this will not change the output of action. After the first turn when the weapons are out, Quick Draw has already given it's bonus. Two Fisted continues to give a bonus. When you become wounded and the penalties become to great to continue to make dual attacks effectively, how does Quick Draw aid you any more than Two Fisted? |
You are assuming a long fight. You make a lot of assumptions and aren't terribly concerned about anything other than fitting things into an equation. There are several threads devoted to the mathematical analysis of the system. You might try searching for them.
| culsander wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | It's relevant. |
The 'see above' was in relation to my first line, where I talked about this Agility test.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | You can't move until your turn. You take fewer penalties firing one weapon in that scenario and probably won't hit with both. Your situation is flawed and incomplete for analysis. |
| newForumNewName wrote: | | You aren't making a complete comparison. You are comparing using the same strategy with one edge versus without it. It isn't a complete comparison and is useless. |
| newForumNewName wrote: | No. You haven't taken into account:
a) multiple opponents
b) different ranges
c) opponent actions
d) potential wounds
e) comparing having an edge to not having an edge is a logical fallacy
I'm sure that there are others, but in short your analysis is incomplete and inconclusive. It lacks relevance and a complete picture. It's like first year physics: everything happens in a frictionless vacuum. Which is fine for learning the basics, but you're asking an advanced question which requires factoring those sorts of things in.
Best of luck. |
You cannot be serious.
Clint made a specific scenario, to which I responded a specific equation. You claimed that my equation was incorrect.
I wrote out my equation, within the limits of the scenario, and asked you to prove it incorrect. You then state that I did not account for variables that were not only not within the scenario, but completely invalidate the scenario. And then claim my equation is inconclusive. My equation was in vacuum because the scenario was in vacuum.
Clint asked to solve for X, I solved for X, and you're highroading that I didn't solve for Y. |
No. I'm pointing out that you aren't considering the full array of situations in your analysis. Clint pointed out a single thing to think about and you've taken it as the only thing to consider.
| culsander wrote: | | Are you attempting to troll? |
Calling people trolls is rude and inconsiderate. Please don't do that. I'm trying to help you.
_________________
"I had a whole bunch of advice for you but got ninja'd by newForumNewName. I'd just do what he says." -- 77IM
"While nFNN could be less of a jerk about how he says what he says, what he says is essentially correct." -- ValhallaGH |
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culsandar
Novice
Joined: 17 May 2012
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| newForumNewName wrote: | | You are assuming a long fight. You make a lot of assumptions and aren't terribly concerned about anything other than fitting things into an equation. There are several threads devoted to the mathematical analysis of the system. You might try searching for them. |
| newForumNewName wrote: | | No. I'm pointing out that you aren't considering the full array of situations in your analysis. Clint pointed out a single thing to think about and you've taken it as the only thing to consider. |
I've taken it as the only thing to consider? You claimed that the math was incorrect on an example I was giving to someone else, and when asked to prove that specific example was mathematically incorrect, you have spent 4 long posts not only not proving the math wrong, but creating some hyperbole about outside situations that I apparently have not taken into consideration.
In case you have forgotten, the original challenge began with this:
| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | I don't think that you are taking all penalties into account. |
How so? Tell me what I miss. |
There is a clearly defined theory here. You thought my math was wrong. There is also a clearly defined retort here. I didn't think my math was wrong. When ask to prove your theory, you do not do that.
You spend the next four posts explaining how my example was "faulty" and incomplete. It is, I don't deny it. You said the math to my application was wrong, not the application itself.
That was not your challenge.
You continue to invent variables that were not part of the original scenario; and claim that my example, which only pertained to the original scenario and not your added variables, is incomplete.
But that was not your challenge.
You also claim that I am making incomplete comparisons that were not part of the original scenario; and claim that my example, which only pertained to the original scenario which had set comparisons.
But that was not your challenge.
If you think that my decisions regarding actions my character may take in a game to be "not up to your satisfaction," I appreciate your opinion.
But when you claim that my math itself was incorrect, and then spend a page of text backpedaling some crap about first year physics students to not have to man up and say "my bad, the math was right," then it is not I that has taken this as the only thing to consider.
| newForumNewName wrote: | | Calling people trolls is rude and inconsiderate. Please don't do that. I'm trying to help you. |
Seeing now that you truly believe what you are spouting, I recant that sentence and apologize. |
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ogbendog
Heroic
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1905
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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QD is most useful whenever you start a combat without a weapon out (duh)
So, settings where you don't walk around with a weapon out. A dungeon crawlin' fools type game, well, you'd pretty much draw your wpn before opening the door.
Urban settings are probably the least likely to allow you to walk around with a gun or sword out. |
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jerepp
Seasoned
Joined: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 207
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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A couple of things to consider...
Your initial analysis seems to be of the sort that Quick Draw is about as good as the other two on the first round and then less useful after that.
a) I think Clint brought up the fact that revolvers run out of ammo fast to nudge you into thinking that the 'after that' part of your argument is actually only a round or two. Then you have to reload which probably requires dropping or holstering one of the guns so you can get bullets for the other and then you'll have to draw that gun again and holster the other to reload it or continue firing only one weapon after the initial barrage. In that case all the edges we've been considering mean nothing after the 3rd round anyway.
b) If you are playing Deadlands and you are in the situation that has been outlined odds are you are actually in 'High Noon' situation and there is a special mini-game handling that and in that mini-game QuickDraw is by far the more powerful edge.
c) Even if its not a Dual, the first round may well be far more important than later rounds if both gunmen are standing in the open blazing away at each other at short range... odds are somebody will be seriously hurt in that first round so what might happen in later rounds is probably less significant than it might seem.
d) If I do not have QuickDraw my first round is likely to actually be spent diving behind the water barrel next to the hitching post and drawing my weapons behind 100% cover and not even trying to shoot yet rather than working with a -6 penalty for 2 draw actions and 2 shoot actions. That sort of penalty makes the whole exercise pointless.
Basically depending on your edges you might do very different things confronted with the same situation.
If I had QuickDraw I would probably QuickDraw my revolver and shoot just one gun at no penalty the first round. Hoping to take my opponent down before they got going at all.
If I had Two-Fisted I would get to cover first and draw both weapons without shooting for the first round and then break from cover and blast'm with both barrels on later rounds after I was all ready to go.
Which is better or worse is a lot harder to say because really we have two very different situations going on. Its an apples and oranges kind of comparison. |
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newForumNewName
Heroic
Joined: 22 Oct 2010
Posts: 1781
Location: Broomfield, CO
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Is Quick Draw any good? |
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| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | You are assuming a long fight. You make a lot of assumptions and aren't terribly concerned about anything other than fitting things into an equation. There are several threads devoted to the mathematical analysis of the system. You might try searching for them. |
| newForumNewName wrote: | | No. I'm pointing out that you aren't considering the full array of situations in your analysis. Clint pointed out a single thing to think about and you've taken it as the only thing to consider. |
I've taken it as the only thing to consider? You claimed that the math was incorrect on an example I was giving to someone else, and when asked to prove that specific example was mathematically incorrect, you have spent 4 long posts not only not proving the math wrong, but creating some hyperbole about outside situations that I apparently have not taken into consideration. |
No. You asked what you missed. You did not ask if your example was mathematically incorrect. There is quite a large difference.
| culsander wrote: | In case you have forgotten, the original challenge began with this:
| culsandar wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | I don't think that you are taking all penalties into account. |
How so? Tell me what I miss. |
There is a clearly defined theory here. |
Yes.
| culsander wrote: | | You thought my math was wrong. |
No. I think that you missed many different factors and attempted to explain them.
| culsander wrote: | | There is also a clearly defined retort here. |
Yes. You said, "Tell me what I miss." Not really asking for a mathematical anything, eh?
| culsander wrote: | | I didn't think my math was wrong. |
Your math isn't wrong. Simply incomplete.
| culsander wrote: | | When ask to prove your theory, you do not do that. |
No. You misunderstood something somewhere along the line and we're now in a several post long dissection of what you said and what I said. Really useful 
| culsander wrote: | You spend the next four posts explaining how my example was "faulty" and incomplete. It is, I don't deny it. You said the math to my application was wrong, not the application itself.
That was not your challenge. |
Re-read my exact words. That was my exact challenge. "I don't think that you are taking all penalties into account."
| culsander wrote: | If you think that my decisions regarding actions my character may take in a game to be "not up to your satisfaction," I appreciate your opinion.
But when you claim that my math itself was incorrect, and then spend a page of text backpedaling some crap about first year physics students to not have to man up and say "my bad, the math was right," then it is not I that has taken this as the only thing to consider. |
Mostly because I never stated anything resembling, "your math is wrong." I simply never stated, "your math is right." I took it for granted that it was correct insofar as what was on the page.
| culsander wrote: | | newForumNewName wrote: | | Calling people trolls is rude and inconsiderate. Please don't do that. I'm trying to help you. |
Seeing now that you truly believe what you are spouting, I recant that sentence and apologize. |
"Spouting" probably wasn't the best word to use. Backhanded apologies aren't really cool either.
_________________
"I had a whole bunch of advice for you but got ninja'd by newForumNewName. I'd just do what he says." -- 77IM
"While nFNN could be less of a jerk about how he says what he says, what he says is essentially correct." -- ValhallaGH |
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GranFalloon
Veteran
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 646
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:15 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, in the interest of civility, I'd like to make an official, "Let's chill, mates." The tone has been abrasive and teh intarwebs to not convey subtlety well. Culsander is new here, and may not be aware that we try to keep a friendly demeanor. Many places have a more adversarial tone, and we don't want it creepin' in.
So! That said, on to the original question. First thing, I ain't touchin' no math. Despite all the dice and probabilities running around, I don't consider a well-played RPG to be a math game. It's all circumstances.
In the case of a gunslinger who gets in a lot of one-on-one fights, I would go for Quick Draw. That first round is pretty crucial. If you can get a bullet into your opponent, you can start eating up his bennies and/or actions right off the bat.
On the other hand, if you're fighting a horde of aliens with a pair of laser pistols with a hundred shots each, I would take Two-fisted and Ambidextrous. Actually, I would probably take Quick and Fleet-footed, but that wasn't the question. |
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ValhallaGH
Legendary
Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 4452
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| Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: |
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"You're not gonna make it.
No, you're not gonna make it.
You're not gonna make it,
Through the Fiiiiight!"
This is savage worlds. If you stand in the open street when lead is flying through the air then you are going to die.
The most optimized gunslinger I have ever seen uses Improved Hip Shooting, Quick Draw, Quick Reload, Improvisational Fighter, and Improved Trademark Weapon. Six shots a round at +2 to hit, lets him hit four to six opponents every round - or one guy four to six times a round. Then he took Right Hand of the Devil and his average shot is almost as dangerous as a cannonball.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die." |
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