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Edgeworth
Seasoned
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 135
Location: Kouvola, Finland
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 Posted: Thu May 10, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: The Savage Witcher |
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Before anyone gets too excited, I have no intention to run a Witcher RPG and probably never will have. With that said, I've recently reintroduced myself to the Witcher lore through the Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings and have been pondering how to translate that world from the short stories and video games (the tv-series doesn't count!) to the big silver screen that is the gaming table.
Alas, I have not read the short stories for my local library's copies are currently all loaned out, so my knowledge is drawn from the games. Well, from the second game and the first two acts of the first.
That should not be problem, since I'm more interest in hearing how you guys would handle it than just comment my takes on the matter (although those are appreciated too!)
With THAT said, what I'm interested in:
Potions: how does potion making work, what skills and Edges are needed? How to represent their toxicity and the need to drink in a peaceful situation?
Blade Oils: Again, how to make them? How to determine and keep track of the duration?
Bombs and traps: you guessed it; making them? how to work in the various effects of the devices?
Steel and silver: Does a steel sword work on monsters at all and does a silver sword do damage against sentient beings?
Races: What racial abilities should humans, elves, dwarves, trolls and the other possible candidates for PC races have? Should there be different kinds of humans to represent the different people of different countries or as someone else would've phrased: should there be cultural templates?
Bestiary: What kind of abilities should The Witcher's dragon, harpy, drowner and nekker have that's not in the fantasy staple?
New, modified and removed Edges and Hindrances: Does Doubting Thomas make the cut? Is Noble as it reads or will it perhaps impose Charisma penalty amongst some people? What does one need to get the Witcher Professional Edge and what does it grant? How does AB: Sorcery differ from AB: Magic?
Setting Rules: Does The Witcher need Reputation system? Perhaps a Sanity system? Can players spend their bennies when they roll snake eyes?
Please note that these are just the things that popped in my head right now. What I'm looking for is just some insight from different points of views on how to represent various aspects of the Witcher in a Savage way. However, I'm particularly interested in how to use witcher-like potion and blade oil system, since I'm considering using that kind of a thing in my forever-in-development home-brew Post-Apocalyptic High Fantasy game.
I won't be including my initial thoughs on the matter in this post, since I'm at work and tired. Make no mistake, I'll still be lurking here, in the shadows (literally, it's 1 am), reading your responses. So without further ado, make my night-shift and post a post, even if just a small one, if you will. |
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Erpegis
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Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:30 am Post subject: |
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I've played 'a' witcher in a mini-campaign, and together with GM I invented most of the crunch. Sapkowski in his short stories warped many traditional fairy tales and the GM wanted to do the same with Alice in Wonderland stories, setting Queen Calanthe of Cintra (grandmother of Ciri) as Queen of Hearts.
We took some info from the Polish overrated Witcher RPG, but our GM assumed that canon is something we create, and if we wanted to have female witchers then at least parts of the horrible TV series would be canon.
We handled potions and blade oils as magical items, totally ignoring the rules for crafting them, simply because the monster-slaying was not the focus of the campaign.
Steel and silver = Some monsters were vulnerable to silver or meteoric iron, which dealt extra Acing 1d6 damage. Silver sword did normally 1d8 damage, steel one 1d10.
Races - we went with standard SWD elves, dwarves, half-elves, half-folk and gnomes. All the races had -2 Charisma when dealing with someone of the other race. We had an elven archer in the party and she was visibly annoyed. Trolls, dragons and dryads were banned forever, and the two extinct races (we played in the time of short stories) were... extinct.
I designed mutations of my witcher using race generation system from Nemezis (increased Agility, high metabolism, night vision, ugly mutation, allergies).
Cultural templates are a big no-no. Our GM explicitly said that there are only five major kingdoms in the world (+ Nilfgaard) and the lesser ones might appear and disappear instantly. Even then the major kingdoms might offer only certain Edges (like Redanian cavalier).
Monsters: we only fought a Jabberwocky ("I've been a witcher for thirty years and I've never heard of such a monster" "Yeah, it's been named by a drunk peasant, blabbering something about mimsy toves. Could be worse, I guess"), which was something like a shapeshifting magical dragon-like creation of a wizard, not really based on stories or games.
Edges and Hindrances: Doubting Thomas exists but it's not "does not believe in magic" but rather "is skeptical", since magic in the witcher world is quite scientific. The Witcher is a combination of race and Edge AB: Witcher (I used the normal wizard rules but couldn't regain Power Points on my own).
Arcane Backgrounds:
Sorcerer - more or less as written, can pick healing powers. We'd makes some rules about components, gestures and spoken words and how with gaining Rank you'd abandon some of them, but no one played a sorcerer.
Priest - exactly as written, some gods forbid certain powers (Melitele's priestesses can't cast zombie)
Witcher - reflavor the wizard, needs his amulet and can't regenerate Power Points without elixirs (this was carried over from the old Polish Witcher RPG). Oh yeah, and many combat techniques, like deflecting arrows were actually trappings of arcane powers).
Druid - can pick any power, arcane skill not bound to an attribute, snake eyes on an arcane roll mean that the spell is warped, powerful druids can create a circle.
Last edited by Erpegis on Sun May 13, 2012 2:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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kronovan
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Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Sat May 12, 2012 11:25 am Post subject: |
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I'll start by saying I'm a big fan of Sapkowski and the world he's created with the Witcher series. I've read both of his books published in English (The Last Wish and Blood of Elves) and read most of the fan-made translation for Sword of Destiny. Something to be aware of is that the videogame creators only claim inspiration from the books, and as such the games aren't officially considered part of the canon. With only 2 of Sapkowkski's books available in English, that's quite a limiting factor for English reading fans wanting to adapt the setting to a PnP. Not too much of a problem though, as CD Projekt Red for the most part did a good job with capturing the setting in their games. Of course, being a big fan of the setting I've had more than a few thoughts about how it might works as a tabletop PnP.
| Quote: | | With that said, I've recently reintroduced myself to the Witcher lore through the Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings and have been pondering how to translate that world from the short stories and video games (the tv-series doesn't count!) to the big silver screen that is the gaming table. |
The Witcher 2 videogame IMO would be the poorest source to base a PnP on. Not only does it oversimplify the flavor of the setting with its simpler, action-RPG style play mechanics, but the type of story is in ways quite different from a Sapkowski tale. It also doesn't document the world via the in-game books nearly as well the 1st game. Don't get me wrong - I like what CD Projekt Red came up with a much more approachable system for the videogame masses with Witcher 2 and I did enjoy the story and playing it, but I wouldn't use it as a reference for a tabletop game. The Witcher 1 game would be better for that; in fact its story is a later return to the setting of Sapkowski's 1st Witcher short story.
| Quote: | | Alas, I have not read the short stories for my local library's copies are currently all loaned out, so my knowledge is drawn from the games. Well, from the second game and the first two acts of the first. |
By Act you're meaning chapters - correct? The 1st game featured a prologue and 4 chapters and if you managed to get a good ways into the 2nd then you'd have the gist of it. IMO the RPG system in the 1st game is much more reflective of the world in the books, and I'd recommend playing further. As well, if you really want to get a good handle on the flavor of the world, The Blood of Elves is a MUST read. Unfortunately its a novel that's much lighter on action than what you find in the short stories of The Last Wish or Sword of Destiny, and probably would only appeal to a true fan of the setting. Still a very interesting read though and it it details a lot of what's important for a PnP setting.
| Quote: | Potions: how does potion making work, what skills and Edges are needed? How to represent their toxicity and the need to drink in a peaceful situation?
Blade Oils: Again, how to make them? How to determine and keep track of the duration?
Bombs and traps: you guessed it; making them? how to work in the various effects of the devices? |
I've had some thoughts around this and come to the conclusion that it should be handled more like the Hedge Magic in Hellfrost or Herbalist in Iron Dynasty and not like the AB Alchemy edge in the FC. In those systems alchemic concoctions are not tied to magic but are either subject to a time factor (dice roll hours to create) or a scavenging play mechanic (survival dice roll to determine the number of ingedients.) To fit the flavor of the Witcher setting I'd handle oils and bombs the same way, but make them subject to more time or better scavenging with bombs being the most difficult. The need to consume potions while meditating is only a feature of the 2nd video game and IMO something that would work poorly in a PnP - I'm not even convinced it works very well in a videogame.
| Quote: | | Steel and silver: Does a steel sword work on monsters at all and does a silver sword do damage against sentient beings? |
Interesting enough, there isn't much mention of the difference between the 2 in the books, but IMO it's a very cool feature and something I'd want in a PnP. The books are very clear that Witcher's acquire their initial sword via their training, so PCs should start with them but they shouldn't be the best (no initial bonuses) and they of course should have a means to acquire better ones later.
| Quote: | | Races: What racial abilities should humans, elves, dwarves, trolls and the other possible candidates for PC races have? Should there be different kinds of humans to represent the different people of different countries or as someone else would've phrased: should there be cultural templates? |
Trolls with intelligence are only a feature of the 2nd game and in the books aren't an evolved race with culture. In addition to those you listed, there's also Half-Elves, Gnomes, Dryads and Halflings (SW Half-folk). The races detailed in SWD for the most part capture the flavor of the settings quite well. Human culture is a relatively new addition to the continent and as a consequence there isn't a lot of difference between the kingdoms. As well they share a lot of institutions in common i.e Brotherhood of Sorcerers, disciples of Melitele, the School of Troubadors, Holy Order of the Flame, a central/primary learning center at Oxenfurt, etc. All of which makes their cultures more homogonous. The exception of course would be the Nilfgaardian's, but not much is mentioned about their culture and customs.
| Quote: | | Bestiary: What kind of abilities should The Witcher's dragon, harpy, drowner and nekker have that's not in the fantasy staple? |
The books in the 1st video game are the best for this, as they detail their habitats, strengths and weaknesses. Just make sure you find or purchase all of them - really easy because the game tells you those you've already read. Unfortunately that's a limited sampling of all that's in the setting, but its a good start.
| Quote: | | New, modified and removed Edges and Hindrances: Does Doubting Thomas make the cut? Is Noble as it reads or will it perhaps impose Charisma penalty amongst some people? What does one need to get the Witcher Professional Edge and what does it grant? How does AB: Sorcery differ from AB: Magic? |
There really isn't much doubt about magic and the supernatural in the minds of the citizens of the Nordling kingdoms. In fact they seem to put a lot of effort into being rid of sorcerers in their towns when safely given the chance, so IMO Doubting Thomas is out. Ace is also out and Piloting is out as a skill. There's no AB Magic in the setting just AB Sorcery. Keep in mind that Sorcerers are often referred to in the books as Mages, Wizards, Enchanters, Illusionists, Magicians and sometimes for Sorceresses; a Witch. There's a Brotherhood of Sorcerers though, and later a Lodge of Sorceresses, so that's the official title. Unlike the AB in the FC, they also have the ability to heal.
The other power practitioners are Druids and of course Witchers - I do think a AB Witcher edge is necessary. I could go on at length because the canon is very rich in its magic system, but what's very important is that Witcher magic is significantly below a Sorcerers in power and capability - Sorcerers even mock the names Witchers give to some of their powers. That power differential should be reflected in a PnP adaptation. As to what else an AB Witcher edge should provide, I'd use the 1st Witcher game as a template, because IMO it did a very good job of detailing a Witcher.
There isn't much mention of Priests or Priestesses as wielder of powers with the only 2 being the ability to evoke curses and perform exorcisims. They're far more known/valued for their wealth and depth of knowledge and in the case of the priestesses of Melitele; their skill with alchemy and healing. Whether they should be handled as a AB edge or just a Professional edge is debatable - I lean towards the latter. On that note I'd also lean toward removing the edges that require AB Miracles as prerequisite. As to thosde 2 powers, they seem much more akin to something a PC would have in a horror setting, and I'd actually use the Ritual system detailed in the Horror Companion - not the AB Ritual Magic in the FC. I'd create an edge for that ritual ability, and maybe make it a default for a priest/ess.
There are nobles out and about adventuring -the Queen of Lyria's sons immediately come to mind- but as per any SW setting I'd lean toward only allowing fallen nobles. I'd go with that in the name of better roleplaying opportunities and more juice for interesting adventures. I'd use the system in Beasts and Barbarians for that, which is one I really, really like.
| Quote: | | Setting Rules: Does The Witcher need Reputation system? Perhaps a Sanity system? Can players spend their bennies when they roll snake eyes? |
I think you need both and to make a PnP really fit the canon, it should also have a favor system for contacts - perhaps something like the 1 featured in Interface Zero.
Last edited by kronovan on Sun May 13, 2012 9:24 am; edited 2 times in total |
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kronovan
Veteran
Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| As to spending bennies on a snake eyes roll, I'd say no. Although Sapkowski's theme and setting is dark fantasy, it also has some trappings of the grittier sword & sorcery genre. I think if you allow PC's to spend their way out of snake eyes, you'd lose some of that. |
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Erpegis
Novice
Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Sun May 13, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There isn't much mention of Priests or Priestesses as wielder of powers with the only 2 being the ability to evoke curses and perform exorcisims. They're far more known/valued for their wealth and depth of knowledge and in the case of the priestesses of Melitele; |
Priests definitely can occasionally cast spells and their magic is different from the wizard one. That said, most NPC priests don't use magics. It's hinted that the cult of Eternal Flame is a hoax, so their priests probably aren't spellcasters. Priests of feminine deities (Melitele, Freya) can definitely have some supernatural power (and Freya/Melitele herself interviews late in saga). They're not the focus of stories or games, so you can safely disregard that aspect. |
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kronovan
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Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Erpegis wrote: | | Quote: | | There isn't much mention of Priests or Priestesses as wielder of powers with the only 2 being the ability to evoke curses and perform exorcisims. They're far more known/valued for their wealth and depth of knowledge and in the case of the priestesses of Melitele; |
Priests definitely can occasionally cast spells and their magic is different from the wizard one. That said, most NPC priests don't use magics. It's hinted that the cult of Eternal Flame is a hoax, so their priests probably aren't spellcasters. Priests of feminine deities (Melitele, Freya) can definitely have some supernatural power (and Freya/Melitele herself interviews late in saga). They're not the focus of stories or games, so you can safely disregard that aspect. |
The only mention I've ever found are a few references in the videogames, but other than the Vodyanoi priest in Witcher 1, none actually use their powers. As well, in the 3 books I've read there isn't any example of priestly powers other than the 2 I gave which are mentioned in the Last Wish short story in book of the same name. And the priest in that story -well esteemed- certainly doesn't volunteer to use any powers while a djinn spirit is tearing his town apart. I haven't read all of the books and I may well have missed something, so If you know of any specific references please give them. I could certainly understand someone giving an AB to priest and priestesses, but the I'd personally still go with a ritual based system, as that seems to be what's implied in the books.
You're correct about the Eternal Flame being a hoax. They were started by King Radovid I of Redania as a means to infiltrate other kingdoms with people with martial skills. |
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Edgeworth
Seasoned
Joined: 01 Oct 2007
Posts: 135
Location: Kouvola, Finland
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:23 am Post subject: |
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Sorry I haven't been replying, last few days have been a little too busy for my tastes. Anyhoo, thanks for the replies and way to make me feel unqualified to tackle the conversion! 
This thread was born just to satisfy my curiosity how would the mechanics of Witcher 2 translate into Savage Worlds but since I went all the way in the OP to include all Witcher-fluff, I'm way over my head to accurately convert all the things I'd like to. What I can do is make some rules that might not go by the books, but are FFF. Fortunately, Sword of Destiny, Blood of Elves and The Last Wish are all translated to Finnish and my local library has all of them. They're not available for two weeks though, but I'll read them as soon as I can.
| kronovan wrote: | | Quote: | | Alas, I have not read the short stories for my local library's copies are currently all loaned out, so my knowledge is drawn from the games. Well, from the second game and the first two acts of the first. |
By Act you're meaning chapters - correct? |
It's been a few years since I played the first game and I can't remember the chapter I'm in. I got into Vizima and played several hours in the city, though.
Ooops, I gotta go. Who'd think that when you're at work, you have to work? Crazy world we live in. Anyway, I'll post some thoughs on the mechanics I can when I have the time. |
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kronovan
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Joined: 01 Mar 2011
Posts: 678
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Edgeworth wrote: | | This thread was born just to satisfy my curiosity how would the mechanics of Witcher 2 translate into Savage Worlds but since I went all the way in the OP to include all Witcher-fluff, I'm way over my head to accurately convert all the things I'd like to. What I can do is make some rules that might not go by the books, but are FFF. |
An adaption just based on the Witcher 2 game or the entire canon could be FFF, but I do think the setting isn't the best to give a light treatment to. That's because Sapkowski world is as good or better than most that have been written for the dark fantasy genre. To each their own though, and there's nothing wrong with keeping an adaptation fairly generic to the core rules to just run a quick adventure.
| Quote: | | Fortunately, Sword of Destiny, Blood of Elves and The Last Wish are all translated to Finnish and my local library has all of them. They're not available for two weeks though, but I'll read them as soon as I can. |
Ah well, you're in luck if you can read Finnish, because its one of the languages the entire 8 books have been translated into. In addition to those mentioned already there's also; Times of Contempt, Baptism of Fire, The Swallow's Tower and Lady of the Lake. I'd recommend reading The Last Wish and Sword of Destiny 1st, as they're a collection of short stories for the most part and they tend to appeal more to those who like the stories of the videogames. There are also many people who feel those 2 are Sapkowski's best book and its hard to argue with that.
| Quote: | | It's been a few years since I played the first game and I can't remember the chapter I'm in. I got into Vizima and played several hours in the city, though. |
Yes that would be chapter 2 and when you complete it you'd be about half way through. |
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