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Mad scientists are crazy powerful
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Soulliard
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:33 am    Post subject: Mad scientists are crazy powerful Reply with quote

Most of the characters in my current pulp game seem pretty balanced, and everyone gets a chance to shine from time to time. Considering the character variety, I'm very happy with that. One character, however, is substantially more powerful than the rest.

Ironically, the player controlling the character is not a power-gamer at all. It just so happens that his character concept is an extremely powerful one.

He is playing an ex-German weird scientist. His powers include deflection, burst, confusion, and quickness.

Here are the problems I've noticed:
- His character almost never runs out of power points. As a weird scientist with a large number of powers, he has a huge power point pool, and even if one of his devices runs out of charges, he has so many that he can easily switch to another without losing effectiveness. He saves his bennies so device failure has not yet been a major issue.
- Confusion reliably disables 5 targets per round. Most enemies have a Smarts of d6 or less, which makes it almost impossible to make the Smarts check at a -2 penalty (let alone -4).
- Quickness is absurdly good. On round 1, he casts Quickness and immediately gets another turn, so almost nothing is lost. From then on, he is double-attacking with Burst and Confusion.

It's not unusual for this character to take out 1/3 of the enemy forces on his own, in a group with 6 other characters.

Has anyone else run into these problems? Are there balancing factors that I'm just not seeing? It's still a fun character, and the imbalance isn't really hurting the game, it's just something that's been bugging me.
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chugosh
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I felt your pain.

I had a guy with the same kind of character, mostly using quicken and blast. So many Primals and Minions died from that guy. But then one of the others in that party--the player always rolled so well that when sh missed a week, we simply assumed two extras died on each of her cards.
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VonDan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have them rescue a NPC researcher, give her Nerdilicious x 2 , a d10 in smarts, week eyes corrected with glasses and the bake strudel skill at d8. This should make her irresistible to the German Mad Scientist. She is really a high tech spy like a pulp version of the baroness from GI Joe and she will attempt to steel or disable his devices and learn his secrets. Thus the Mad Scientist can have some time to work his PC with out his uber devices and the other players can shine

And BF Zar outside the library today there was a street kid panhandling with a cardboard sign saying he was a Mad Scientist needing money to make a lab. In case he was a SW player I slide my SWDX into my bag to hide it when he walked in the coffee shop
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Last edited by VonDan on Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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geijhan
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:56 am    Post subject: Re: Mad scientists are crazy powerful Reply with quote

Soulliard wrote:
Are there balancing factors that I'm just not seeing?


The fact that all his powers are also items?

He'll probably have a bit of a reputation by now, as will his inventions, so most enemies might focus on disarming the scientist or even on stealing his devices and using them against the PCs (with possibly hilarious failures as a result).
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TheLoremaster
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:36 am    Post subject: Re: Mad scientists are crazy powerful Reply with quote

Soulliard wrote:
He is playing an ex-German weird scientist. His powers include deflection, burst, confusion, and quickness.

You say what his Powers are, but nothing about his Trappings? What are they?

IME, Trappings are the balancing factor for AB: Weird Science more so than other ABs. In most cases, he shouldn't be rolling his Weird Science Skill to be using his Powers, but a Skill appropriate to the trapping. Let's say that the burst power is some sort of super-grenade. Since he has to throw it to hit the target, he should be rolling Throwing, not Weird Science. That means he now has to spread his Skill Points out further just to be effective, and will likely not be as good using his devices as he might be building them.

Keep an eye on the trappings, and that should help balance him out.
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JackMann
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also remember that if he's using his bennies to avoid malfunction, he isn't saving them for soak rolls.
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Dracones
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Mad scientists are crazy powerful Reply with quote

Really if it's not hurting the game, I'd just roll with it. The PC disables 5 NPCs, well, if there are 30 of them then who cares? Cool

I'd think the only real factor is to make sure every player has a role and you allow that role to shine. Your mad scientist might be good at mowing down swarms, but maybe another PC is a crack shot or another one is a great investigator.

That multi-action thrown grenade blast won't be so hot when the mooks are at 30 inches behind -4 cover with long rifles, but your crack shot rifleman PC will feel like a star. But hey, maybe wild dogs are attacking and that mad scientist needs to hold them at bay so your marksman can pick off the mooks.
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Soulliard
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it's not really hurting the game. All the other characters still get their chance to shine. They handle themselves better in melee, can handle big targets better, have skills or powers that set them apart, etc. I don't expect to make any big changes to this game, I was more interested in finding solutions for the next one, in case such a character comes up again.

Quote:
You say what his Powers are, but nothing about his Trappings? What are they?

I forget all the names, but here are the descriptions:
Burst is a gauntlet that shoots out beams of superheated plasma.
Deflection is a set of portals that orbit the scientist. Attacks go in one portal and fly out another, bypassing the scientist in the middle.
Confusion is a mind-enhancing hood.
Quickness is a stopwatch that can be adjusted to affect the speed of the surrounding world.

Quote:
In most cases, he shouldn't be rolling his Weird Science Skill to be using his Powers, but a Skill appropriate to the trapping.
I don't want to change anything so late in the game, but I'll keep this in mind for the next weird scientist. I think most of his powers would still fall under weird science, though, with the exception of Burst (probably shooting).

Quote:
He'll probably have a bit of a reputation by now, as will his inventions, so most enemies might focus on disarming the scientist or even on stealing his devices and using them against the PCs (with possibly hilarious failures as a result).
Heh, I've already been doing this, more or less. The character has a major enemy (the Nazis want him back), so they've been targeting him vigorously. Deflection has saved the character on more than one occasion. This is actually one of the best parts of the character - at one point, he had an epic one-on-one duel with a Nazi scientist while the rest of the party held off the Nazi's twisted creations.
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TheLoremaster
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soulliard wrote:
TheLoremaster wrote:
In most cases, he shouldn't be rolling his Weird Science Skill to be using his Powers, but a Skill appropriate to the trapping.
I don't want to change anything so late in the game, but I'll keep this in mind for the next weird scientist. I think most of his powers would still fall under weird science, though, with the exception of Burst (probably shooting).

And from those Trappings, I would probably agree. However, if you and your group are new to Savage Worlds, now would be the opportune time to discuss this issue and see what the other players say. It may be that other players are feeling overshadowed, but haven't said anything because they're new, or because they don't want to rock the boat.

It's not even really a rules change; that's the way Weird Science is supposed to work. From SWDEE, pg. 120:
Quote:
Weird Science is the skill an inventor uses when activating most devices, and raises increase the effects of the power as usual. If a device uses a different skill, such as Driving, Fighting, or Shooting, the inventor uses that instead. A ray gun, for example, uses the Shooting skill, while a “vibroknife” (a knife with the smite power) uses Fighting.

If I were in your shoes, I'd simply let the Weird Scientist's player reassign his Skill points for free to cover the inconvenience. It will really help to better balance the game.

Good luck!
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UmbraLux
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soulliard wrote:
Quote:
In most cases, he shouldn't be rolling his Weird Science Skill to be using his Powers, but a Skill appropriate to the trapping.
I don't want to change anything so late in the game, but I'll keep this in mind for the next weird scientist. I think most of his powers would still fall under weird science, though, with the exception of Burst (probably shooting).
This is the easiest method of mitigating a Wierd Scientist's power. WS is probably his highest skill, he'll fail a lot more when he has to use a lower one.

That said, Quickness is probably the best single power in the book. It's one you look at and have to ask, "Why would I not take it?" That's an issue with the power though, not the AB. Wink
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Mad scientists are crazy powerful Reply with quote

geijhan wrote:
Soulliard wrote:
Are there balancing factors that I'm just not seeing?


The fact that all his powers are also items?


This is the one I'm most wondering about. Have you as GM ever had his devices taken away, damaged, or destroyed?

That's a huge drawback to this AB, that the powers are not inherent to the character.

It's not just making a Called Shot to attack a device or a Disarm to get him to drop it, but also any Area Effect attack that hits him will affect every device he has a well.

I know it can be hard as it's easy to think, "well, they 'paid' for this, so I don't want to just destroy it," but there is a reason the rules cover rebuilding devices because it's expected to occur and not just from malfunctions, and the player should realize that this extra power doesn't come for "free."

Heck, foes can theoretically take away their devices and use them against them.

Another question I'd have is how many XPs these characters have? They have to at least be Seasoned (to get Quickness), but it looks as if the character has spent a large number of advances on new powers and power points to be capable of all this.
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GranFalloon
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using a skill other than Weird Science is often seen as a drawback, as you have to invest in other skills, but it can be a boon as well. An auto-aiming lightning gun that requires a Weird Science roll is only usable by the Weird Scientist. But put a simple point-and-click-interface (you know, like a barrel and a trigger) on that sucker and you can hand it to the gunslinger and let him wreck shop.
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Soulliard
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheLoremaster wrote:
However, if you and your group are new to Savage Worlds, now would be the opportune time to discuss this issue and see what the other players say. It may be that other players are feeling overshadowed, but haven't said anything because they're new, or because they don't want to rock the boat.
Some are new to SW, some have more experience, but all have been roleplaying for at least a few years, so I trust the players to come to me if they have problems. So far, none of them have.

Quote:
Have you as GM ever had his devices taken away, damaged, or destroyed?
Some of the Nazis have attempted this, but they were unsuccessful. I'll focus more on the items during the next adventure and see if that changes things.

Quote:
It's not just making a Called Shot to attack a device or a Disarm to get him to drop it, but also any Area Effect attack that hits him will affect every device he has a well.
I didn't realize area attacks worked like that (old D&D habits die hard). I'll need to remember that for the next time they fight grenadiers.

Quote:
Another question I'd have is how many XPs these characters have?
By now, they're late Veteran. The character put most of his advances towards boosting his weird science.
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chillburn
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to make sure: You know that malfunctions happen when he rolls a 1 on his skill die, regardless of the wild die?
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Soulliard
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes
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ogbendog
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had no idea area attacks worked that way. Is that in the RAW?

I mean, it could effect none gizmoes (as it should). Flashlights and lanterns, for example
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Shadowdragon
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've always hated how many PP weird scientists get, it seems really unfair when compared to other ABs. I try to use no-PP magic systems when I can, which helps balance things. Otherwise I always rule that devices recharge from the scientist's personal PP pool, they don't recharge on their own.
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chillburn
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was always disappointed by how Mad Scientist devices and Ghost Rock got decoupled in DLR. It's talked about and all, but in the end the devices regen PP at the rate of 1/hour just like any setting. I would have preferred a "one ounce of ghost rock restores one Power Point" rule (which is what I did, but then no one played a Mad Scientist Smile )
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jpk
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Soulliard wrote:
Burst is a gauntlet that shoots out beams of superheated plasma.
Deflection is a set of portals that orbit the scientist. Attacks go in one portal and fly out another, bypassing the scientist in the middle.
Confusion is a mind-enhancing hood.
Quickness is a stopwatch that can be adjusted to affect the speed of the surrounding world.

Make them go to the opera for something. A guy with a gun can hide it in his tux-and-tails, but a guy wearing a hood, gauntlets, and rotating portals? He's not getting in.

It's not something to beat the mad scientist up with, but there are lots and lots of places (churches, nurseries, Turkish baths, and so on) where most of his equipment would make him stand out sooo badly that it'd likely be worse to have it than not.

And even if he can carry the equipment, he still has to put it on. Unless he's got Quick Draw, that's an action to get out a doo-dad. Actually, it's an action to get out each doo-dad, and I find that to be one of the big balancing pieces for Weird Science in general.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ogbendog wrote:
I had no idea area attacks worked that way. Is that in the RAW?


Area effect attacks affect "Everything under (or partially under) the template..." Everything is everything; characters, items, whatever. Not like grenades can be selective. Wink

Minor stuff, I probably won't roll damage on, but important things like devices and other important gear or fragile things like papers and potions (the latter is a definite reminder that Blast does not solve all problems Twisted Evil ).
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