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Kevin
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 Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:52 pm Post subject: The Sequence of Multi-Attacks |
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Question on rules-fu. Put it here instead of the Rules board, b/c I'd like some houserule opinions form the group as well as the official statement (Clint?).
When making a multi-attack, you're supposed to declare ALL your actions before you roll, so you can calculate the right penalty. The rules officially presume all actions happen simultaneously, even if cinematically they don't.
So what happens when your next action is dependent on the one that came before it? You want to board slide down that banister on a 2x4, and then lunge at your opponent—make an Agility roll at -2 and then OOPS!! You failed your Agility roll by ONE point, and now you don't get to roll Fighting because you fell on the floor out of attack range.
But you would have succeeded if you'd saved the attack for next round … and now you don't even get the action that granted you the penalty. Kind of a slap in the face.
What's the official ruling? What are some houserules you've used?
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CitizenKeen
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I make my players tell me how many actions they're taking with their turn, but I don't make them tell me what they're doing. I definitely have players who want to (1) Run and (2) Do X or Y, wherein Y can only be done if they run close enough to their opponents (since the -2 MAP might mean they don't run enough spaces to close in for melee), and then with their second action they attack if they get close enough, or cast a spell if they don't. Just a thought. |
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Cryonic
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| CitizenKeen wrote: | | I make my players tell me how many actions they're taking with their turn, but I don't make them tell me what they're doing. I definitely have players who want to (1) Run and (2) Do X or Y, wherein Y can only be done if they run close enough to their opponents (since the -2 MAP might mean they don't run enough spaces to close in for melee), and then with their second action they attack if they get close enough, or cast a spell if they don't. Just a thought. |
The MAP doesn't apply to the run roll.
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CitizenKeen
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Cryonic wrote: | | CitizenKeen wrote: | | I make my players tell me how many actions they're taking with their turn, but I don't make them tell me what they're doing. I definitely have players who want to (1) Run and (2) Do X or Y, wherein Y can only be done if they run close enough to their opponents (since the -2 MAP might mean they don't run enough spaces to close in for melee), and then with their second action they attack if they get close enough, or cast a spell if they don't. Just a thought. |
The MAP doesn't apply to the run roll. |
Really? On SWDEE 75, it says the -2 applies to all rolls, and doesn't clarify "Trait" rolls like it does elsewhere in the book, so I interpreted that as applying to Run and Damage rolls as well.
Edit: "interrupted" = interpreted, typing on tablet.
Last edited by CitizenKeen on Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Enno
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| CitizenKeen wrote: | | ... so I interrupted that as applying to Run and Damage rolls as well. |
Both ain't trait rolls. The former never was, and the latter since SWEX and it's Way of the Brave combat rule changes.
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CitizenKeen
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| Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Enno wrote: | | CitizenKeen wrote: | | ... so I [interpreted] that as applying to Run and Damage rolls as well. |
Both ain't trait rolls. The former never was, and the latter since SWEX and it's Way of the Brave combat rule changes. |
I am well aware they're not Trait rolls. That's my point. Elsewhere in the rules, certain things apply to Trait rolls, like Wild Die. The MAP rules say that the penalty applies to all rolls, not all Trait rolls. Both Running and Damage are die rolls. The fact that the authors of SW took the time to clarify that some things apply to "Trait rolls only" elsewhere in the book, and the fact that they didn't clarify that in the Multi-Action Penalty section[1], led me to believe that the MAP applies to, as the book says, "all rolls."
Clearly, I could be in the wrong (and it's looking like I am). I'm just curious where it says that.
[1] Note: Or did they? I didn't see it, that doesn't mean it's not there. |
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Kevin
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| Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:37 am Post subject: |
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… anyway …
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Snate56
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| Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, well in my point of view, dems da breaks.
I mean that's why you have a penalty for trying to perform multiple actions in the first place. 
If you have a Benny you can try the roll you failed over again...
SteveN
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TheLoremaster
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| Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| CitizenKeen wrote: | | Clearly, I could be in the wrong (and it's looking like I am). I'm just curious where it says that. |
SWDEE, pg. 74, emphasis added:
| Quote: | | Running: A character may run an additional 1d6” during his turn if he wishes. Characters suffer a –2 penalty (the standard multi- action penalty) to all other actions made while running. |
So the MAP does not apply to the Running die, but does apply to all other actions.
Edit to add: to help with the original issue, I typically have players declare actions at the start of the turn, then declare targets when they resolve. So the example of, "I'm going to slide down the bannister and attack that guy!", becomes, "I'm going to do a stunt move and an attack." If he fails the stunt move, he can still make an attack at any legal target he can still reach, provided he's not Shaken. Same thing goes for multi-attacks.
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Takeda
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| Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2013 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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I figure the penalty applies to any actions that were intended to be applied even if a later one can't be attempted by a failure of one of the previous ones. That's the downside of spreading your butter too thin. That's the trick really ... if you're confident you can pull off 3-actions at -4 to each then go for it. If you splat on action 1 and end up flat on our back then so be it. Maybe next time you'll choose to make 2-actions at -2 and hope you get your 3rd off early in the initiative for the following round.
Personally I don't see that there needs to be much consideration on it ... besides a possible cumulative bonus to something you've previously attempted ... if it's appropriate. Say you botch your first roll and didn't even slide down the bannister so you get a +1 on your next attempt (on that manoeuvre) and you can choose to add a MAP to that if you choose to make more than one action that round.
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ValhallaGH
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| Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| TheLoremaster wrote: | | Edit to add: to help with the original issue, I typically have players declare actions at the start of the turn, then declare targets when they resolve. So the example of, "I'm going to slide down the bannister and attack that guy!", becomes, "I'm going to do a stunt move and an attack." If he fails the stunt move, he can still make an attack at any legal target he can still reach, provided he's not Shaken. Same thing goes for multi-attacks. |
This is pretty much how I handle it.
Sometimes your failures prevent you from doing stuff. That's the risk you take when you try to be amazing - if you fail then you look like a chump. But, if you pull it off despite the penalties then you look and feel like a superhero - which, in my experience, feels a heck of a lot better than those games where being amazing is trivial.
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Clint
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| Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:54 am Post subject: Re: The Sequence of Multi-Attacks |
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| Kevin wrote: | So what happens when your next action is dependent on the one that came before it? You want to board slide down that banister on a 2x4, and then lunge at your opponent—make an Agility roll at -2 and then OOPS!! You failed your Agility roll by ONE point, and now you don't get to roll Fighting because you fell on the floor out of attack range.
But you would have succeeded if you'd saved the attack for next round … and now you don't even get the action that granted you the penalty. Kind of a slap in the face.
What's the official ruling? |
Some actions are dependent on previous ones; the most common being drawing a weapon (or reloading one) and attacking with it in the same round.
If the first action fails, then the dependent one simply cannot be performed. It doesn't matter if it's due to the MAP or not.
The fact the character would have had a greater chance of success if he had attempted the actions separately is kind of the point of the penalty to the rolls.
A GM could allow a bit of leeway in certain circumstances; like if the player said they wanted to draw a melee weapon and attack, but fail the roll to draw the weapon; the GM might still allow an unarmed attack at the penalty.
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Kevin
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| Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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So both the general concensus and the official ruling are like Snate said—
| Snate56 wrote: | | … dems da breaks. |
Cool. That's how I usually do it. I was just fishing for other ideas. Thanks.
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| Snate56 wrote: | | I know to some people this is blasphemy, but there is such a thing as too much detail... |
| Jux wrote: | | Perfection is not when there is nothing more to add, but nothing more to take away. |
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