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Savage Armoury: Weapon creation system
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The Dread Polack
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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I'm not quite sure I follow. The only way the handaxe could be more expensive would be if you gave it the "Expensive" weapon ability (or made the battleaxe "Cheap"). That could make sense for specific cases, for example if the handaxe is of particularly high quality - but if you don't want it to be more expensive, then you just don't give it the "Expensive" ability.


Yeah, I didn't explain myself there. I approached it from the standpoint that items all had to end up with a cost of +2, including cost. What that means is that certainly not all items are equal in abilities, but that is offset by their cost. For instance, two weapons that are exactly alike except one can be thrown (let's say short range), then the ranged weapon is inherently better, and should cost more. If the item is +1 point better, because of short range, I'd offset that by making it slightly more expensive, which is what you'd expect from a superior weapon.

Really, I thought about using the system to determine the final cost of weapons.

That's about all I can say for now, since I have barely used the system yet.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah I see, so the actual weapon abilities don't all add up to +2. I don't know how well that'll work to be honest, as it means the price will be directly proportional to the power of the weapon. It gives players a very strong incentive to buy the most expensive weapons possible - and if you're allowing them to design their own weapons, it'll be comparable with allowing them to buy edges with cash.

The main goal behind Savage Armoury was to avoid the concept of "superior weapons" and provide more of a level playing field. The Expensive and Masterwork abilities do give an advantage, but not an excessive one.

All of the examples I've given add up to +2, and it's only the more powerful modern weapons (like the shotgun and flamethrower) that I've struggled with.
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The Dread Polack
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, that makes sense. I'm still going to try to balance their cost, but not be too concerned about it.
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BadDecisionDino
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiosity, what was the justification for giving all armors twice their value unless the enemy gets a raise? Is there something I missed in the original rules that this is supposed to be accounting for? Or was it an attempt to make armors behave more realisitically?
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BadDecisionDino wrote:
Out of curiosity, what was the justification for giving all armors twice their value unless the enemy gets a raise? Is there something I missed in the original rules that this is supposed to be accounting for? Or was it an attempt to make armors behave more realisitically?

Nope, Savage Armoury isn't about realism, but about balance. I've noticed that +3 damage/toughness is generally worth about +2 attack/parry, and I wanted armour to give -1 parry per weight category (as this puts the Armour Proficiency bonus on-par with that of the Block edge). I couldn't have +1˝ armour per weight category, so I drew inspiration from the reinforced armour in the Fantasy Companion and made it +2, +1 on a raise (you may have noticed I use a similar approach for damage and raise dice on weapons, with the former costing twice as many points as the latter).

Here's two warriors based on the Experienced Soldier stats from SWD (d8 Strength, Vigor and Fighting, d8 longswords, d6 in everything else). One is naked, the other has heavy armour (+6, +3 on a raise, not to be confused with the "Heavy Armor" ability used by vehicles and such):

Naked won 54567 fights, Heavy Armour won 45433. Average number of rounds per fight: 7.

And here they are again, this time both using wild attack:

Naked won 45533 fights, Heavy Armour won 54467. Average number of rounds per fight: 3.

Of course armour doesn't do so well against AP weapons - but equally, the Parry penalty won't matter against ranged attackers, so the effectiveness of the armour is going to vary depending on the specifics of each encounter. But overall I think it's fairly well balanced.
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BadDecisionDino
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh. So the idea is to truly make "Parry" the line of defense for those who have mobility, but make them play carefully and reserved, and make walking tanks fight as if they're expecting to get hit, freeing them up to just put strength behind their blows.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well an armoured tank would probably invest in Armour Proficiency, allowing them to reduce or even negate the Parry penalty. They could also create a shield or other defensive weapon with +1 Parry.

In my fantasy campaign I usually give trained soldiers (NPCs) the Armour Proficiency edge.
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BadDecisionDino
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should the Brawny Edge interact with armor penalties when worn? It seems like it should give some kind of bonus, but I'm not sure how to balance it against Armour Proficiency.

Also, could you suggest an additional pricing scheme for something like "Masterwork" armor? Something like "Multiply the price by 2 to reduce the encumbrance penalty"? Sort of like the classic "Elven" crafted armor, or Mithril chainmail.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BadDecisionDino wrote:
Should the Brawny Edge interact with armor penalties when worn? It seems like it should give some kind of bonus, but I'm not sure how to balance it against Armour Proficiency.

The Brawny guy can carry more weight, but his armour will also be bigger and therefore heavier, so personally I wouldn't worry about it - the encumbrance is fairly abstract anyway.

BadDecisionDino wrote:
Also, could you suggest an additional pricing scheme for something like "Masterwork" armor? Something like "Multiply the price by 2 to reduce the encumbrance penalty"? Sort of like the classic "Elven" crafted armor, or Mithril chainmail.

For masterwork gear I'd most likely just say it was tougher, more difficult to damage. But if I really wanted to break it down into points, I'd probably do it a bit like the weapons, eg:

+3 abilities

* Rigid: Armour now gives you the Hardy ability (requires Bulky).

+2 abilities

* Durable: +1 armour.
* Crude: Armour costs quarter to buy and repair.

+1 abilities

* Kevlar: +1 armour vs guns.
* Reflective: +1 armour vs lasers.
* Reinforced: +1 armour except on a raise.
* Cheap: Armour costs half to buy and repair.

-3 abilities

* Bulky: -1 parry when worn, 1 significant item to carry.

-2 abilities

* Masterwork: Armour costs quadruple to buy and repair.

-1 abilities

* Expensive: Armour costs double to buy and repair.


Then you've got light armour:

* Durable (+2): +1 armour.
* Reinforced (+1): +1 armour except on a raise.
* Bulky (-3): -1 parry when worn, 1 significant item to carry.

And if you wanted to make it masterwork, that would quadruple the cost but give you an additional 2 points to spend.

Disclaimer: Obviously that's just a rough example. I'm not sure I'd want to extend the same amount of customisation to armour, just showing how it could be done.
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Mylon
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh wow, I really like this. I was wondering how to do high quality weapons in my game. So far I've only used double the price = higher toughness and +1 AP. But I think this system really provides more flexibility for being able to get specialized weapons if you have more cash to blow.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mylon wrote:
Oh wow, I really like this. I was wondering how to do high quality weapons in my game. So far I've only used double the price = higher toughness and +1 AP. But I think this system really provides more flexibility for being able to get specialized weapons if you have more cash to blow.

You could certainly use it for higher quality weapons, but bear in mind that a +3 weapon ability is roughly on par with an Edge. Thus I recommend restricting them as follows:

An Expensive weapon costs double to buy and repair, and gives you a +1 weapon ability.

A Masterwork weapon costs quadruple to buy and repair, and gives you a +2 weapon ability.

A Magical Heirloom is an Edge, and gives you a +3 weapon ability.

So you can effectively buy (with cash) the benefits of ⅓ or ⅔ of an edge, but not a full edge.
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Mylon
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also doing a fantasy setting with magic and enchanted weapons and such. The pricing guide in Fantasy Companion is terrible, but it's not too unusual to have a sword that's worth 10xp if the group has a lot of cash to blow. Just need to throw in some stuff like rust monsters to make sure the focus is on spreading the wealth rather than putting everything into a couple magic items.
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Savage Cheerleader
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is really amazing stuff! Thanks...now I just need to compel my group to play SW...
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Snate56
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mylon wrote:
... Just need to throw in some stuff like rust monsters to make sure the focus is on spreading the wealth rather than putting everything into a couple magic items.


Ya know, I thoroughly despise GMs that arbitrarily steal my stuff. If they didn't want me to have it, they shouldn't have given it to me. At least come up with a story about how that particular sword has been missing some years and its owner is searching for it or something. That way you can drag it out over a series of adventures with it getting more and more dangerous to keep it.



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Mylon
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snate56 wrote:
Mylon wrote:
... Just need to throw in some stuff like rust monsters to make sure the focus is on spreading the wealth rather than putting everything into a couple magic items.


Ya know, I thoroughly despise GMs that arbitrarily steal my stuff. If they didn't want me to have it, they shouldn't have given it to me. At least come up with a story about how that particular sword has been missing some years and its owner is searching for it or something. That way you can drag it out over a series of adventures with it getting more and more dangerous to keep it.

SteveN


Everything wears down and needs to be replaced. It'd be rather silly if we only needed to build stuff once. Well, actually that'd be really cool! But it doesn't happen. Likewise, if the players are continuously acquiring wealth and never losing it, it quickly turns into a matter of 'how to get a better stabbity thing' which can detract from adventure and story.

Swords chip and break in use. A piece of armor can only be hammered back into place so many times before it becomes brittle or the hole just can't be patched up. Magic weapons in general are expensive, but they should also be expensive to maintain to prevent the aforementioned problem.

In general, rust monsters or that occasional dick that declares a sunder attack represent this kind of typical wear and tear, it just happens to be loaded up all at once. So while you may not like the GM that takes your cool toys away, maybe the problem is you have come to rely too much on these cool toys.

I'm trying to build my current game up to an epic war with armies and everything. And I want the PCs to be important political figures. But so long as the idea of even buying a +3 sword exists, they're likely to save up for that instead of try and bribe the enemy's counselor so they don't have an army knocking on their doorstep and laughing at their measly collection of magic sword versus their twenty thousand.
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The Dread Polack
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, the flail has the ability: "Ignores Shield Parry and Cover bonus", but I don't see this in your list of abilities. Do you use this? How much do you think it is worth?
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dread Polack wrote:
So, the flail has the ability: "Ignores Shield Parry and Cover bonus", but I don't see this in your list of abilities. Do you use this? How much do you think it is worth?

I must admit I don't like that ability very much. I'm not sure what benefit there is in a non-throwable melee weapon ignoring cover, but explicitly ignoring the parry bonus of shields (and nothing else) just encourages people to use a rapier instead. I guess the medium or large shield would still be worth having if you're facing ranged attackers, but the only advantage the small shield has over the rapier is price.

As I've mentioned before, the main goal of Savage Armoury is to balance the weapons against each other, to encourage people to pick weapons that fit their character concept. But I also think it makes sense that a flail would be more difficult to parry with a rapier as well, or indeed with any weapon. Thus if you look in the "premade melee weapons" section, you'll see that I've given the flail Strong Offence, which gives it a flat +1 bonus to Fighting rolls. It's hard to defend against, no matter what you're using.

I would suggest against having weapon abilities that work against specific weapon types, otherwise there's the risk of combat turning into rock-paper-scissors. However if you wanted a Strong Offence that only worked against Strong Defence, I guess you could reduce the ability to +2, although personally I'd probably just reduce the $$$ price.
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The Dread Polack
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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my campaign, flails also ignore parry defense from weapons as well.

Can cover apply to melee attacks? I think the classic maneuver of shuffling around a tree or table to keep it between you and the attacker covers this, (if it isn't simply being used to keep the attacker at a distance) or else simply standing behind a doorway does it. Don't know offhand if RAW says aything about this. If it does, then I think the flail would likely ignore this.

My players aren't anywhere near being meta-tactically minded enough to exploit this, so I don't think it'll be a problem. The player in my group who just picked up the multi-headed flail was just excited because it sounded cool. I used the "Great Flail" I think, from either the FC or Hellfrost for stats, then ran it through Savage Armoury to get an idea of how good it was.

Thanks for the info.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Dread Polack wrote:
Can cover apply to melee attacks?

Yes. The attacker can usually shift around to ignore the cover, pretty trivially, so it doesn't get any page space. But, if the circumstances are there, cover would apply to melee attacks.
Arrow slits in a castle wall are a prime example - the guys outside can attack the archers with spears, but a -4 for fighting through an arrow slit. The Unarmed Defender rule would help some, as would Wild Attacks, but it's still difficult and almost impossible to bypass.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But in this case we're not talking about cover in general, but rather a melee weapon that "Ignores Shield Parry and Cover bonus".

The section on shields states that "If a character with a shield is hit by a ranged attack from the protected side, roll damage normally, but add the Armor bonus of the shield to the character’s Toughness (it acts as an obstacle)." (emphasis mine)

So shields act as cover against ranged attacks - but the flail is a melee weapon. I guess you could throw it as an improvised weapon, but the flail ability predates the rules for improvised weapons.

Could this be left over from an older version of Savage Worlds? Perhaps shields used to provide cover/armour against melee weapons as well? That's the only possibility I can think of.
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