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DLR: Wierd Science and Ghostrock problem
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've come to better solution to this - the Mad Science is burning one pound of ghostrock on his max Power Point level. So starting character needs to refuel his gizmo if the device burned 20 PP. If he tooked the Edges granting more PP, he would used his ghostrock more effectively. Cool
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Clint
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
I've come to better solution to this - the Mad Science is burning one pound of ghostrock on his max Power Point level. So starting character needs to refuel his gizmo if the device burned 20 PP. If he tooked the Edges granting more PP, he would used his ghostrock more effectively. Cool


Do they get anything for that?

I mean, using their initial PPs of their beginning power once is going to cost 40% of their starting money ($100 for 1 lb. of ghost rock).

Just seems that it will require Rich and mostly likely Filthy Rich to play a viable Mad Scientist if you have to drop $100 to recharge every power you take every time they run out in game.
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Just seems that it will require Rich and mostly likely Filthy Rich to play a viable Mad Scientist if you have to drop $100 to recharge every power you take every time they run out in game.


And this why Mad Scientist needs funding. Big company funding... Or need to steal money. Or steal ghostrock. And so Maze Race has begin! Twisted Evil

I imagine you don't just shoot from your precious Tesla rifle, just because you can. The Ghostrock Rush is then very viable in-setting event, and funding is classical trope for starting Mad Sciensist. If players could easily just "throw another ghostrock" beacuse it would be cheap, setting inner dynamic would be inbalanced in my point of view.

But I understand this defined number is very judgmental on Marshall's judgement - I like games about greed, so one lb. on Max PP. Other one could easily say you have 5*(Max PP) from 1lb.

Ghostrock usage style in game
Greed 'n' Gritty - 1lb/Max PP
Pulp 'n'Flashy - 1lb/5*Max PP
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Clash957
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
I imagine you don't just shoot from your precious Tesla rifle, just because you can. The Ghostrock Rush is then very viable in-setting event, and funding is classical trope for starting Mad Sciensist. If players could easily just "throw another ghostrock" beacuse it would be cheap, setting inner dynamic would be inbalanced in my point of view.


So you don't want any of your players to be Mad Scientists? Seriously, I love Mad Scientists (about 3/4 my Deadlands characters have been one), but I would quickly switch over to playing a huckster or something. I even have no problem with paying for the Arcane Background twice if the Marshal wants a more normal Weird West. I also, understand the needing funding for research, but I think laboratories, research assistants, and materials to turn that untested prototype (a PP gizmo) in to a ready for production infernal device (with the Eureka! Edge) would be much better route to accomplish this.

For the money you want a Mad Scientist to spend, you would be hard pressed for many gunslingers, and many other archetypes, to want to continue to risk their neck. They could easily retire with that kind of Dinero. A Mad Science character simply is going to be a greedy academic most of the time.

Being a Mad Scientist ain't no walk in the park. You get one Power and any other ones deal you Dementia (say bye bye positive Charisma). Sooner or later the thing is going to malfunction, and you hope it doesn't kill you out right. Gizmos have weight too, and some things like flamethrowers, are heavy. Sure Mad Scientists get a larger list of powers but madness kinda limits players getting too many.

If you want to make your Mad Scientist be a little more penny pinching, I think charging them for invention supplies would be far more fair. Not necessarily fair, just more fair. You lose/break that fancy electrostatic gun. Well too bad you're in Billings, MT. The general store has some things you can jury-rig for $25 (with a -2 to use it), but you'll have to wait until you get to a bigger city for the proper components which will run around $100.

Trust me, there are plenty of ways to separate a Mad Scientist from his cash in Deadlands without making them buy power points.
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clash957 wrote:
So you don't want any of your players to be Mad Scientists? Seriously, I love Mad Scientists (about 3/4 my Deadlands characters have been one), but I would quickly switch over to playing a huckster or something.


When are some in-setting compliacation you just abandon concept? Cool Hucksters are demonologist that can be burn at stake. Shamans play with alien spirits. Mad Scientists only get one new dementia on next power and typicaly glamour and fame for next great invention.

Second, as I mentioned before - it's logical ghostrock should be burn in process, my Mad Scientists players also support it. How much is more thing on debate and Marshalls play style - want a more pulpy, less horrific game? Just gave 5*MaxPP on lb. of ghost rock.

Just look on the math - Burst Power costs 2PP. That means 10 shots(!!!) before changing the lb. in my Greedy 'n' Gritty playstyle. 10 shots are typicality 3 combats. And this is one adventure. ONE WHOLE ADVENTURE ON ONE GHOSTROCK POUND!!!

In pulpy style, you get 50 shots and 15 typical combats for one piece of ghostrock. That's 5 adventures - half of classical plot point campaign!

Yeah, those numbers are based on guys that don't shoot every time, but mostly will use the gizmos when just needed. It's based on our Sciensists that take they self made weapons in times it really is needed.

Clash957 wrote:
I even have no problem with paying for the Arcane Background twice if the Marshal wants a more normal Weird West.


Could you explain it, because I don't get it?

Clash957 wrote:
I also, understand the needing funding for research, but I think laboratories, research assistants, and materials to turn that untested prototype (a PP gizmo) in to a ready for production infernal device (with the Eureka! Edge) would be much better route to accomplish this.


Don't happen on sessions, it isn't problem. Funding isn't real motivation at last it makes complication for players in-play. If I would be Mad Scientists as written, I would just zap everything all the time, cause on normal rules ghostrock isn't a problem, what stops me? Then I would only send short email to Marshall "for the money we get on last job I buy assistant and new place". Okay, logical, but were are emotions, were are dangers? WHERE IS, GODDAMN, GHOSTROCK IN IT?!

Ghostrock that was created by Manitous to GENERATE GREED!

Clash957 wrote:
For the money you want a Mad Scientist to spend, you would be hard pressed for many gunslingers, and many other archetypes, to want to continue to risk their neck. They could easily retire with that kind of Dinero. A Mad Science character simply is going to be a greedy academic most of the time.


Oh, excuse me - he isn't? Let's see - most famous Scientist are leading two megacorporations, other work for Rail Barons for profit. I didn't heard about any charitable Mad Scientist. And even if there is one, he has hard time - CAUSE GHOSTROCK WAS MADE TO GENERATE GREED.

Clash957 wrote:
Being a Mad Scientist ain't no walk in the park. You get one Power and any other ones deal you Dementia (say bye bye positive Charisma). Sooner or later the thing is going to malfunction, and you hope it doesn't kill you out right. Gizmos have weight too, and some things like flamethrowers, are heavy. Sure Mad Scientists get a larger list of powers but madness kinda limits players getting too many.


Logical, in-setting, is to make gizmos run on ghostrock ( arguments I putted previously in this topic ). And I see "always looking for funding" to just great story device ( pun not intented Wink ) to add Mad to posse, looking for new job.

Clash957 wrote:
If you want to make your Mad Scientist be a little more penny pinching, I think charging them for invention supplies would be far more fair. Not necessarily fair, just more fair. You lose/break that fancy electrostatic gun. Well too bad you're in Billings, MT. The general store has some things you can jury-rig for $25 (with a -2 to use it), but you'll have to wait until you get to a bigger city for the proper components which will run around $100.


Good idea, but once more - things not necessarily giving emotions in game. Also - how many times the devices have jammed for you? I run now sixth or seventh session and no malfunction to this day, with two Scientists in posse. Non existing problem isn't problem for players.

Clash957 wrote:

Trust me, there are plenty of ways to separate a Mad Scientist from his cash in Deadlands without making them buy power points.


Like stealing them? Why do I use thing that is bad for every one as only "bad thing" for MS, they "special problem"? It's like making Sciensts having all the dementia problems with gizmos and then giving everyone in posse, MS or not, his own gizmo.

Buying ghostrock refuels is logical in-setting, balance some "I have 20PP, you only 10PP" issue, and makes a Mad more greedy sons-of-bitches. Win-win situation for Marshall like me. Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point of interest. In the Space: 1889 setting, the Weird Science AB as presented there requires that expendible materials be purchased to regain power points. Might find it useful for some more defined guidelines.
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sitting Duck, thank you very much, as I was thinking about mixing Deadlands with Space 1889 already - just don't tell my players. Wink

Edit:
Looked in to mine Space 1889 and got this:

Space 1889:Red Sands wrote:

Weird Science creates devices without time-consuming research and huge bankrolls. If you can imagine it, it works! The drawback is these gadgets are not replicable and cannot seem to be perfected for commercial production. But they do perform in a way that is sometimes miraculous to behold.

This background works almost exactly as explained in Savage Worlds. Your mad scientist must spend one shilling
(1s) per Power Point for materials to recharge her devices, but otherwise receives her abilities and powers as described in Savage Worlds.

An explanation is necessary for the power’s manifestation, as is a properly pseudo-scientific name for the device. The device itself must weigh the equivalent of a matching mundane item, and the GM must approve the creation.


Seeing as one shilling is more or less one dolar ( compared some mundunes items in both settings ), that means resources should give 100 PP for 100$ worth ghostrock ( or equivalents in spare parts).

But stop a horses! We must rememeber that in Deadlands, we can make mass produced Infernal Machines buring ghostrock. Sciensist are Mad after using the ghostrock, but can produce on mass scale they inventions.

Taking this in account - I think the 100PP from lb. of ghostrock for gizmo is good, general. Only in my game, I really want them to fight for it, so Ghostrock Rush would be very good seen on sessilons. Also, 100PP is very much to bookmark - seeing how much is used on one session, I would say it would get at least 10 meetings to deplet one pound of ghostrock. Two meetings with 20PP is much more in my style.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
Clash957 wrote:
So you don't want any of your players to be Mad Scientists? Seriously, I love Mad Scientists (about 3/4 my Deadlands characters have been one), but I would quickly switch over to playing a huckster or something.


When are some in-setting compliacation you just abandon concept?

Nope. When the Marshall cuts the legs off my concept, that's when I abandon it.
If using a Gizmo will cost me $100 per full use, that means that I'm just a Gunslinger with a large vocabulary and a high repair skill. Without the constant, insanely good income of Rich or Filthy Rich, my character will be slaughtered by an unnecessary "in-setting complication". Being too poor to afford a safe place to sleep, or being hunted by a lawman's posse for that robbery that was needed to fund my experiments, or getting shot by the Agency / Rangers because I'm too dangerously irresponsible to recruit, or getting eaten by monsters when I went to find or dig up some more Ghost Rock.
My character is being punished and killed for no discernible reason - Mad Scientists are not mechanically game-breaking, they're no more powerful than any other character (like the Ranger with Improved Hip Shootin' and Right Hand of the Devil), and they're common enough in-setting that they don't each have to spend tens of thousands of dollars a year, individually, to spread the madness and terror that they generate.

So, when the Marshal cuts the legs off of my character concept, I'll change to something else. Something that I'll actually get to have fun playing.


If you want to tell stories about mega-greedy scientist so-called "heroes" then that's your fun. But don't tell me that I should do that because it isn't my fun.
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:

So, when the Marshal cuts the legs off of my character concept, I'll change to something else. Something that I'll actually get to have fun playing.

If you want to tell stories about mega-greedy scientist so-called "heroes" then that's your fun. But don't tell me that I should do that because it isn't my fun.


Your opinion, munchkin - my players don't grumble, only have some issues with precise rating. Don't want to play that style - your fiat. I was asking for help in balancing rules, get one. Cool
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wyrdhamster wrote:
I was asking for help in balancing rules, get one.

No, you weren't. You said "I do this" and ignored all criticisms of it while offering insult to those that gave you their opinions (backed with reasoning both mechanical and fun-oriented). That's not asking for help, and certainly not seeking to balance a house rule.
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off - this is mine take on rules. It has logical points based on setting ( stated before ), but no one is making you to play by this. It's house rule and it shall be.

ValhallaGH wrote:
You said "I do this" and ignored all criticisms of it while offering insult to those that gave you their opinions (backed with reasoning both mechanical and fun-oriented).


I reply to all Clash957 concerns, he didn't answered more to it, so I got he understood my POV. Looking for his points if he will answer.

You only bicker on "oh, players can't aford that, it's just isn't cool". Well, dear ValhallGH, I looked in to "1880 Smith & Robards Catalog" and most things there has cost 500$+ and if burning ghost rock, burning it in ration about 50 miles travel per pound of ghostrock for transportation.

Because, what it looks like, staying true to this book other things don't burn ghostrock - even heaters or automatons running on ghostrock. Confused

Ergo, designers made big mistake thinking "it's steampunk, who will think on logical repercussion and ghostrock depliotion?" Answer: my players and I.

And so are conclusions from reading "Smith & Robards":

1. Players can easily afford 1 pound of ghostrock if they should be able to buy Infernal Machine or two from Catalog. Starting character pays 40% of it's cash, but it isn't 100%, 80% or even 60%. Beside, starting Scientist mostly don't need to spend on other things - he can buy one gun, set of clothes, some memorabilia, and on West it should be enough to start. Other character don't buy many more also, don't they.

2. One pound of ghostrock should be lasting on long time - if steampowered vehicles burn about one pound on 50 miles of travel, it's more superfuel I ever imagined. Espeacily, as clearly other things that run on ghostrock don't have "usage time". It's so super fuel that makes run smaller thing than steam wagon run endlessly on one pound of ghostrock. Confused

3. And then we have the Eureka! from Players Guide on which we have some guidelines.

Quote:
Eureka!
(...)One pound of ghost rock allows a maintainable power to be used for two hours of total use (regardless of its normal duration) and allows an
Instant power to be used 20 times. For purposes of such powers, it’s best to track each pound of ghost rock as 20 “charges.” (...)


Then taking all that in account - we have very large mess here. Once, in corebook, everything runs on ghostrock and has some guidlines how. And in Catalog, it's just "superfuel never-ending". Seeing as the setting favors Ghostrock Rush, I go with first option, form corebook.

Must think more on it, but as I see it for now - Power Points are ill-fitting to this mechanics. Maybe making lower Power Points, and make them only on buying powers in gizmos, like in SWD? Something like 5PP on Novice, 10PP on Seasoned, etc. to put powers in gizmo. And then, with whatever Power, gizmo has 20 charges for one pound of ghostrock, not 20 PP like it should be now.


Last edited by wyrdhamster on Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Cutter XXIII
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As noted via PM, I'll have to ask you to delete the Eureka! text from your post; that material is copyrighted.

wyrdhamster wrote:
Then taking all that in account - we have very large mess here. Once, in corebook, everything runs on ghostrock and has some guidlines how. And in Catalog, it's just "super fuel never ending".

The rulebooks clearly stipulate the differences between a "gizmo" and an "Infernal Device."

Not saying you have to abide by that distinction, as it's more to ensure fun gameplay than to logically uphold setting details, but just wanted to note that it's clearly laid out in the rules for a reason.

Thanks!
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cutter XXIII wrote:

Not saying you have to abide by that distinction, as it's more to ensure fun gameplay than to logically uphold setting details, but just wanted to note that it's clearly laid out in the rules for a reason.


Oh, Ramel made me enought of it when we fought on this subject. But to me - gizmos and Infernal Machines should run on most the same principale, not chaning rules just because hero got to Legend. Sure, gizmos can be more "players favorable" but if we have set priceless of physics, they should abide before and after the same.
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Clash957
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the late response but I've been in pretend war (world's worst LARP becasue the Military won't let me play John Rambo, I got play myself). For players, I don't think I spoil anything about mad science that can't be found in a Tombstone Epitaph Guide but read with caution.

wyrdhamster wrote:
Second, as I mentioned before - it's logical ghostrock should be burn in process, my Mad Scientists players also support it. How much is more thing on debate and Marshalls play style - want a more pulpy, less horrific game? Just gave 5*MaxPP on lb. of ghost rock.


You're right, it isn't logical. "New" Science" isn't logical; I think that's part of the reason the poor professors and doctors gain dementia. But there is also another problem. If the players head to the Maze or Black Hills they could get their hands on a maze runner load of ghost rock. Does that mean the Mad Scientist basically has infinite Power Points?

Clash957 wrote:
I even have no problem with paying for the Arcane Background twice if the Marshal wants a more normal Weird West.


wyrdhamster wrote:
Could you explain it, because I don't get it?


What I mean is to take an Arcane Background the player must spend two Advances instead of one. This Advance tax should reduce the number people wanting to play AB for the "Kewl Skillz" if you are looking for a more mundane Weird West, but don't want to eliminate AB entirely.

wyrdhamster wrote:
Funding isn't real motivation at last it makes complication for players in-play. If I would be Mad Scientists as written, I would just zap everything all the time, cause on normal rules ghostrock isn't a problem, what stops me? Then I would only send short email to Marshall "for the money we get on last job I buy assistant and new place". Okay, logical, but were are emotions, were are dangers? WHERE IS, GODDAMN, GHOSTROCK IN IT?!


Well if you feel so strongly about it, I suppose you could have a Mad Scientist player have to pay a monthly upkeep for his gizmos. Or more extreme, require Mad Scientists to have the Poverty Hindrance for the same effect. I'd would talk it over with your players, especially anyone thinking about a Mad Scientist. Personally, I think my suggestions are still little too punishing for a standard/normal/how-I-Marshal version of Deadlands. These are more for a more normal western play style. I also have to note many gizmos back in Classic Deadlands didn't use ghost rock as a fuel source. One Lighting gun used the Salt Flats for a battery (The Forbidden God).

wyrdhamster wrote:
Let's see - most famous Scientist are leading two megacorporations, other work for Rail Barons for profit. I didn't heard about any charitable Mad Scientist. And even if there is one, he has hard time -


Each making their fortunes with Mad Science, true. But none of my Mad Scientist characters were in it for the money. My first character back in classic was already exceedingly rich seeking validation from his peers back east for his contributions to science and later the thrill of creation. If you want to push greed, simply require the Greedy Hindrance to take Mad Science or change out one the results you don't like on the Dementia Table. As for charitable Mad Scientists, R. Percy Sitgreaves (a Metal Mage) and I believe the Mad Scientist in Night Train offered to fought for the good of mankind with no thought of reward. Those aren't great examples, but Mad Science is a Mad Scientist's job. People need money to live, and you might as well charge for the what you're good at. I think you want to force Greedy (or Rich/Filthy Rich) on anyone who wants to play a Mad Scientist. I can see how this could make the game a little more realistic, just don't quite see how this can make the game more enjoyable.

wyrdhamster wrote:
And I see "always looking for funding" to just great story device ( pun not intented Wink ) to add Mad to posse, looking for new job.


Just as fun motivations for Mad Scientists are seeking prestige with their gizmo, field testing to work out the bugs because he are too poor to have a lab, not good enough (yet) to sign on to a bigger outfit, knows about the things that go bump in the night and wants to use 'Science!' to fight back, and a whole host of others. If the player wants the character's motivation to be funding they can take Greedy, but I think you would be better off to allow the player to decide why they adventure and use that as a hook rather than forcing them to take the work or not use the core of their archetype.

wyrdhamster wrote:
Also - how many times the devices have jammed for you? I run now sixth or seventh session and no malfunction to this day, with two Scientists in posse. Non existing problem isn't problem for players.


Again true, Savage Worlds is far more forgiving for malfunctions than Classic was. Seen many a Classic Mad Scientist blow 'em selves up.
You could add the "no Fate Chip can be spent on go Snake Eyes." I don't know what to tell you, things just don't blow up like they used to.

wyrdhamster wrote:
Like stealing them? Why do I use thing that is bad for every one as only "bad thing" for MS, they "special problem"? It's like making Sciensts having all the dementia problems with gizmos and then giving everyone in posse, MS or not, his own gizmo.


It is an odd thing in RPGs where players can pickpocket, loot, rob, and take what ever, but they expect their stuff never to be worn, broken, lost, stolen, or anything else that happens to stuff in real life. But you don't have to steal it. It could be targeted in fight, parts could wear out, they are upgrading its performance (Power Points), got wet in a river/bad rainstorm/other weather, they absent mind-ly sat on a delicate part, in fit of anger threw the gizmo off a cliff, paranoid someone was going to reverse engineer it, they hid a critical part and can't remember where they hid it. Use the character's Dementias against them, but give the player a Fate Chip for the nasty ones. Just make sure the player know things can happen to gear before hand and don't single out the Mad Scientist.

wyrdhamster wrote:
Buying ghostrock refuels is logical in-setting, balance some "I have 20PP, you only 10PP" issue, and makes a Mad more greedy sons-of-bitches. Win-win situation for Marshall like me. Twisted Evil


I think the Deadlands Reloaded ABs are balanced as is. You disagree, but since neither of us are in the same game it doesn't matter. I would address this with rest of your players and get their input. Maybe they agree, maybe none of them like Mad Scientist anyway, or maybe they think that these changes handicap any player who likes this archetype. I'm just offering my input as someone who loves playing Mad Scientists that thought your house rules were a little too extreme for me to bother playing one.
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clash957 wrote:

wyrdhamster wrote:
Second, as I mentioned before - it's logical ghostrock should be burn in process, my Mad Scientists players also support it. How much is more thing on debate and Marshalls play style - want a more pulpy, less horrific game? Just gave 5*MaxPP on lb. of ghost rock.


You're right, it isn't logical. "New" Science" isn't logical; I think that's part of the reason the poor professors and doctors gain dementia. But there is also another problem. If the players head to the Maze or Black Hills they could get their hands on a maze runner load of ghost rock. Does that mean the Mad Scientist basically has infinite Power Points?


To be frank - rest Arcane Backgorunds have them now. Hucksters can wing of the deal with Manitou, Shamans got on 1/PP on hour if they live good with spirits, Blessed don’t have PP problem altogether. As I plan to run Flood later in game, my players probably WILL have he infinite resource. That can be stolen…

Clash957 wrote:
What I mean is to take an Arcane Background the player must spend two Advances instead of one. This Advance tax should reduce the number people wanting to play AB for the "Kewl Skillz" if you are looking for a more mundane Weird West, but don't want to eliminate AB entirely.


I like pulpy weirdness of West. My only problem is that rules now represent not Weird SCIENECE, only new “Kewl Skillz”. Basically, this AB works as magicians, or some kind arcane smith masters, because it defies logic, that should it extrapolate, nor redound. Energy, in eyes of Weird Scientists, to power they gizmos should come from fuel, not “it just works”. Man of Science would never go on something like that.

Clash957 wrote:
Well if you feel so strongly about it, I suppose you could have a Mad Scientist player have to pay a monthly upkeep for his gizmos.


Monthly unkeep don’t generate emotions on session, it’s only story seed…

Clash957 wrote:
Or more extreme, require Mad Scientists to have the Poverty Hindrance for the same effect.


To harsh, in my eyes. It’s giving defining trait to character, not showing difficult situation. It’s like making the player to take Wanted Hindrance in contrary to making the plot so players are really wanted because they decisions in-game. One is more in background of character, other is instant and “now-and-here” problem.

Clash957 wrote:
I also have to note many gizmos back in Classic Deadlands didn't use ghost rock as a fuel source. One Lighting gun used the Salt Flats for a battery (The Forbidden God).

I got that after reading “1880 Smith & Robards Catalog”. Solution I got is this – no, all gizmos, as prototypes, use Ghostrock, even as spare parts material that must be replaced when device is used often. Even clockwork machines has little cogs that are better made of ghostrock steel than normal.
Clash957 wrote:
If you want to push greed, simply require the Greedy Hindrance to take Mad Science or change out one the results you don't like on the Dementia Table.


Maybe I would used it as “alternate option” if player don’t like the new Dementia they get.

Clash957 wrote:
As for charitable Mad Scientists, R. Percy Sitgreaves (a Metal Mage) and I believe the Mad Scientist in Night Train offered to fought for the good of mankind with no thought of reward. Those aren't great examples, but Mad Science is a Mad Scientist's job. People need money to live, and you might as well charge for the what you're good at. I think you want to force Greedy (or Rich/Filthy Rich) on anyone who wants to play a Mad Scientist. I can see how this could make the game a little more realistic, just don't quite see how this can make the game more enjoyable.


Thanks for charitable characters examples, I will look into them. But as to “you make it they must be Greedy/Rich” – no, it’s not my intent. My intention is to make game a bit realistic when my own players ask on they own “how much ghostrock our gizmos use”. As I told many times – I talk to them, and we all agree that gizmos shoud “burn” ghostrock if the all industry is based on this superfuel. No, not only Infernal Machines, but prototype gizmos of Weird Scientists also. In this light, using ghostrock as “Power Points source” is logical assumption.

Clash957 wrote:

wyrdhamster wrote:
Also - how many times the devices have jammed for you? I run now sixth or seventh session and no malfunction to this day, with two Scientists in posse. Non existing problem isn't problem for players.


Again true, Savage Worlds is far more forgiving for malfunctions than Classic was. Seen many a Classic Mad Scientist blow 'em selves up.
You could add the "no Fate Chip can be spent on go Snake Eyes." I don't know what to tell you, things just don't blow up like they used to.


I’m okay with that, because other AB don’t have corresponding problems the same – Husckters spells normaly don’t do random damage if he isn’t “playing with devil”, shamans spell, generally, don’t wind up, all cause of 1’s in results. Problem I have is the other AB have second, more real problem – Husckters playing with Manitous risking they spell changed, Shamans must be in spirits favors, Blessed must live in code of Almighty. What do the Scientists have? Only not being in game Mulfunctions. From the setting construction and Weird Scientists description, it’s logical they are sucked to ghostrcok – thing not represented in rules. That could also by in-setting problem for them.

Clash957 wrote:
It is an odd thing in RPGs where players can pickpocket, loot, rob, and take what ever, but they expect their stuff never to be worn, broken, lost, stolen, or anything else that happens to stuff in real life. But you don't have to steal it. It could be targeted in fight, parts could wear out, they are upgrading its performance (Power Points), got wet in a river/bad rainstorm/other weather, they absent mind-ly sat on a delicate part, in fit of anger threw the gizmo off a cliff, paranoid someone was going to reverse engineer it, they hid a critical part and can't remember where they hid it. Use the character's Dementias against them, but give the player a Fate Chip for the nasty ones. Just make sure the player know things can happen to gear before hand and don't single out the Mad Scientist.


One of our Scientists had the butler, as PC is English nobleman. He wasn’t having any Edge for it, it only was based on his shillings. But when this NPC died as result of the play, player almost killed me for this, even if it was his fault. So no, “stealing to make problems for Scientists” isn’t option. Also, as I marked before – other AB have more problems than them, and my players agree they like ghostrock burning. Your ideas I will remember to make more colorful story seeds. Wink

Clash957 wrote:
I'm just offering my input as someone who loves playing Mad Scientists that thought your house rules were a little too extreme for me to bother playing one.


Understand that, only pitty no one other like my house rule. Even if you don’t like it, you can help me balance it more. Max PP for one pound of ghostrock is to low?
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The Stray
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see some issues with this houserule, having played a mad scientist myself in Reloaded:

1. $100 for a full charge is a lot of money. What costs $100 in 1880 would cost $2230.40 in 2010 dollars. When you apply this to the Smith & Robards devices, you find that this means these are the toys of the super rich.

2. Infernal Devices and Gizmos are different beasts. Infernal Devices are steampunk devices that have been codified, studied, and have many working blueprints. They are technology. Very advanced technology, but technology nonetheless. Gizmos, on the other hand, are rare, wonky, and can break the known laws of science, because they are actually magical devices powered by the Manitou who give the Mad Scientists their ideas. They only work because the Mad Scientist who built said device believes it works and has a demon on his shoulder making it so.

3. Because Gizmos are actually magic masquerading as science, Power Point loss already describes running low on fuel, parts wearing out and needing to be replaced, ammunition expenditures, and so on. One Mad scientist in a game I run winds his clockwork mechanisms--when his Gizmos run out of PP it represents the spring wearing out and needing to be replaced. My MacGyver character had a "bag of tricks" as his power (Boost/lower trait)--I represented this as half-finished one-trick devices he carries with him and had to replace or repair fairly often. In neither of these cases was ghost rock ever a factor (the clockwork sonic cannon did have Ghost Steel brings, but they were a component, not a fuel source). A third character played an actual automaton, with all her devices built in. The automaton was powered by Ghost Rock, but her devices were simply unreliable "features" of her chassis.

4. Mad science has plenty of weaknesses to compensate for the benefits:

When a hex goes bad or a Blessed suffers a crisis of faith, the effects are usually short term. When a gizmo rolls a one it blows up (potentially fatal) and is out of action until the scientist can rebuild it.

Gizmos can be stolen. I know from personal, frustrating experience how annoying this is, even though the loss was temporary.

Mad Scientists permanently damage their minds when they get new gizmos. Trust me. It adds up. No other AB has such a drawback inherent in their nature.

5. If you want to make Ghost Rock a fuel source that can run out, that would count as a Significant Drawback to the trapping of the power, and the power of the devices should be increased accordingly.

Given all these issues, if you're still inclined to use Ghost Rock as a fuel source, my suggestion is to do it by the ounce, not the pound. An ounce of ghostrock would cost $6.25, which is far more reasonable a price for Adventurers on the move constantly to pay to keep their devices going.
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ThatGiantMan
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another couple of things to consider:

10 activations of a 2 point power for $100 is possibly workable in a fairly low powered game (it would be too expensive for me, but I could see it working for some groups). However, 6 activations of a 3 point power or even 4 activations of a 5 point power (if the character is seasoned) for $100 becomes a bit of a trial. You may want your mad scientists to be thinking about money regularly, but you don't want them doing nothing else.

Of course, if they travel to the great maze, it then potentially becomes 4 activations for $500, which is completely unworkable unless every adventure ends with finding a huge pile of cash.
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iskandar
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatGiantMan wrote:
Another couple of things to consider:

10 activations of a 2 point power for $100 is possibly workable in a fairly low powered game (it would be too expensive for me, but I could see it working for some groups). However, 6 activations of a 3 point power or even 4 activations of a 5 point power (if the character is seasoned) for $100 becomes a bit of a trial. You may want your mad scientists to be thinking about money regularly, but you don't want them doing nothing else.

Of course, if they travel to the great maze, it then potentially becomes 4 activations for $500, which is completely unworkable unless every adventure ends with finding a huge pile of cash.


the great maze is a bit of an aberration considering that we can assume ghostrock is a bit cheaper there considering its so near to the supply.
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Stray wrote:
1. $100 for a full charge is a lot of money. What costs $100 in 1880 would cost $2230.40 in 2010 dollars. When you apply this to the Smith & Robards devices, you find that this means these are the toys of the super rich.


Currency exchange rate don't have anything to it. I maybe wrong, but from what I saw in couple of adventures, general reward for completion of "job" for posse is about 100$+ each member. So the Mad can afford one pound on adventure basis. The question is isn't it highly to much to cost PP as one pound, contrary to "it's just wrong"...

The Stray wrote:
2. Infernal Devices and Gizmos are different beasts...


Answered this argmunt so many times I don't count now in this topic. Read thought my posts to see my resoning on this.

The Stray wrote:
3. Because Gizmos are actually magic masquerading as science, Power Point loss already describes running low on fuel, parts wearing out and needing to be replaced, ammunition expenditures, and so on. One Mad scientist in a game I run winds his clockwork mechanisms--when his Gizmos run out of PP it represents the spring wearing out and needing to be replaced. My MacGyver character had a "bag of tricks" as his power (Boost/lower trait)--I represented this as half-finished one-trick devices he carries with him and had to replace or repair fairly often. In neither of these cases was ghost rock ever a factor (the clockwork sonic cannon did have Ghost Steel brings, but they were a component, not a fuel source). A third character played an actual automaton, with all her devices built in. The automaton was powered by Ghost Rock, but her devices were simply unreliable "features" of her chassis.


See, I can easily understand that and agree with this. But then we are left with the questions my players asked me: "How much ghostrock use gizmo, if it's fueld by it? And why would any one use ghostrock as fuel then, it it's expensive, when you can use almost no cost equivalents?"

The Stray wrote:
4. Mad science has plenty of weaknesses to compensate for the benefits:

When a hex goes bad or a Blessed suffers a crisis of faith, the effects are usually short term. When a gizmo rolls a one it blows up (potentially fatal) and is out of action until the scientist can rebuild it.

Gizmos can be stolen. I know from personal, frustrating experience how annoying this is, even though the loss was temporary.

Mad Scientists permanently damage their minds when they get new gizmos. Trust me. It adds up. No other AB has such a drawback inherent in their nature.


Remember this, but we still have "energy taken from nowhere" issue, which is
unacceptable for scientist, sane or not.

The Stray wrote:
5. If you want to make Ghost Rock a fuel source that can run out, that would count as a Significant Drawback to the trapping of the power, and the power of the devices should be increased accordingly.


May think on it. Maybe gives bonus +1 or +2 for actvating devices on ghostrock?

The Stray wrote:
Given all these issues, if you're still inclined to use Ghost Rock as a fuel source, my suggestion is to do it by the ounce, not the pound. An ounce of ghostrock would cost $6.25, which is far more reasonable a price for Adventurers on the move constantly to pay to keep their devices going.


On this, you must know i'm Pole, so I don't on daily basis use imperial system. So correct my calculation if they are wrong.

I'm more inclined on this, but truly, players would get there lower power then - ounce is 1/12 of pound. That means if made 1 Power Point equivalent of 1 ounce of ghostrock, one pound for 100$ would give 12 PP for player to power it's gizmo. My house rule to use his Max PP as one pound is more favorable then, cause starting character will have 20 at start from one pound, and more from this pound if he will take "Power Points" Edge.

On the other hand, making one ounce as Max PP is too much - theoretically, starting character could buy 40 ounces and that is 800 PP. Even with 5PP cost Powers, that gives us 160 uses, that it's more than enough for whole campaign, not only one adventure! So there we will don't have any real problem with ghostrock in-game.

Looking on this if players buy "one, sacred pound" of ghostrock for 100$, it still gives him 16 ounces, and this is 320 PP. Maybe more managable, but still too much... Confused


Last edited by wyrdhamster on Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:48 am; edited 3 times in total
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wyrdhamster
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatGiantMan wrote:
Another couple of things to consider:

10 activations of a 2 point power for $100 is possibly workable in a fairly low powered game (it would be too expensive for me, but I could see it working for some groups). However, 6 activations of a 3 point power or even 4 activations of a 5 point power (if the character is seasoned) for $100 becomes a bit of a trial. You may want your mad scientists to be thinking about money regularly, but you don't want them doing nothing else.


I see this problem myself and think about solution. Other version of house ruled Arcane Background it's based on "Eureka!" Edge Infernal Machine's combusting ghostrock ration - in idea it's you get 5 PP on Rank to buy the Powers you can use, so Novice has 5PP on Powers, Seasoned has 10PP on Powers, etc. Then, each gizmo, wether it is powerd on ghost rock or not, has 20 "charges" to fire one of it's powers. So one pound of ghostrock = 20 uses of Powers.

But there we have other problem then - Alchemists. They Egde is based on PP as we have now, and tinkering with this is rewriting the Egde also. Not to mention new balance need to be made how many potions can Alchemists brew. Confused

iskandar wrote:

ThatGiantMan wrote:

Of course, if they travel to the great maze, it then potentially becomes 4 activations for $500, which is completely unworkable unless every adventure ends with finding a huge pile of cash.


the great maze is a bit of an aberration considering that we can assume ghostrock is a bit cheaper there considering its so near to the supply.


I wonder how much - maybe 80$ per pound in Maze?
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