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Combat and calculating damage ?

 
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Dr_Hell
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Joined: 03 Aug 2012
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:06 am    Post subject: Combat and calculating damage ? Reply with quote

First off all excuse my bad english im a swede so english isnt my native language .. We palyed deadlands reloaded for the first time yeasterday and it was loads of fun but and this is a major but , the one thing the players complained about is how easy it was to be taken out and die ..

an ordinary mook with like d8 in shooting could kill a player in one shoot

as a marshall i rolled a 8 on the shooting die thats an ace i get to roll again i rolled a 2 for a total of 10 thats 6 over the target value of 4 so thats a raise and i get an extra d6 on my damage roll... the mook hade a winchester 73 thats 2d8+1 damage + the extra d6 for the raise so i roll and get a 8 + 4 +4 thats a total of 16 damage and i roll the 8 again since it aced and all damage can ace and get 6 for a total of 22 damage we compare this to the players toughness thats 5 .. the first 5 of the totall of 22 damage takes us up to the players toughness so thats a shaken the next 4 over is a raise and then we used 9 of the damage and a second shaken is a wound so now hes wounded and we have only used 9 out of a totall of 22 damage the next 4 takes us up to 13 thats another raise so thats another wound he now has 2 wounds

another 4 takes us up to 17 thats another wound he now has 3 wounds the maximum for a wildcard and we still have 5 damage left and those five gives him another wound thats a total of 4 wounds

he tries to soak but fails so no wound is taken away , we then chek the knockout table for 4 wounds becuse thats what sent him there and we find mortal wound we roll on the injure table and get guts and broken

he then has to roll a vigor roll to survive and has minus 3 since he is maximum wounded he has d6 in vigor so he rolls that + his wild die and get 3+ a 5 on the wild die and calculating that he has minus 3 beacuse of his wounds he fails and dies

and this happend alot of times during play all playes except one that run away died ..

have we done this wrong or is really deadlans this player deadly ?
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RJack
Seasoned


Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 344
Location: Mad Zone, Wiskaton

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Combat and calculating damage ? Reply with quote

Dr_Hell wrote:

he tries to soak but fails so no wound is taken away , we then chek the knockout table for 4 wounds becuse thats what sent him there and we find mortal wound we roll on the injure table and get guts and broken


Sounds like you're using an older version of the core rules. As of the Explorer's edition (and Savage Worlds Deluxe), the wound level that brings a character to incapacitation no longer determines their status. Instead, they get a Vigor roll to determine their status. There's still a pretty good chance (barring fate chip use) that you can end up in the "bleeding out" scenario, but it's not automatic for those who received 4 or more wounds.

Also, soak rolls don't include the wound penalty now (I can't remember if they did in the past), and if you fail to soak with one fate chip, you can try again with another.

Dr_Hell wrote:
have we done this wrong or is really deadlans this player deadly ?


Deadlands is pretty deadly, even if you're using the more recent ruleset. One thing to remember, sometimes if you receive enough wounds all in one go to send you to the incapacitation table, it's often better to spend your chips on the vigor roll to avoid bleeding out than to try to soak the damage. Also, healing checks from other party members can be attempted untrained to stabilize a fellow party member, and fate chips may be spent on that too.
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Jonah Hex
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Joined: 05 Sep 2003
Posts: 732
Location: Saskatoon, SK

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:12 am    Post subject: Re: Combat and calculating damage ? Reply with quote

RJack wrote:
Dr_Hell wrote:

he tries to soak but fails so no wound is taken away , we then chek the knockout table for 4 wounds becuse thats what sent him there and we find mortal wound we roll on the injure table and get guts and broken


Sounds like you're using an older version of the core rules. As of the Explorer's edition (and Savage Worlds Deluxe), the wound level that brings a character to incapacitation no longer determines their status. Instead, they get a Vigor roll to determine their status. There's still a pretty good chance (barring fate chip use) that you can end up in the "bleeding out" scenario, but it's not automatic for those who received 4 or more wounds.


Actually, there's a pretty good chance you end up dead (almost 50% with a d6 vigor, barring bennies and mitigating edges), bleeding out is about another 20%)
Quote:




Dr_Hell wrote:
have we done this wrong or is really deadlans this player deadly ?


Deadlands is pretty deadly, even if you're using the more recent ruleset.

Deadlier, I think, in the current rules than any other, and it doesn't really have anything to do with Deadlands; Savage Worlds Deluxe it just plain deadly if you get incapacitated without bennies, or even with. At least with the original rules you had no chance of dying if you went down from a one or two wound hit. The last two editions are friendlier than the original if you go down with a 4+ point wound, however.

Quote:

One thing to remember, sometimes if you receive enough wounds all in one go to send you to the incapacitation table, it's often better to spend your chips on the vigor roll to avoid bleeding out than to try to soak the damage. Also, healing checks from other party members can be attempted untrained to stabilize a fellow party member, and fate chips may be spent on that too.


All very true.

I would recommend picking up the current edition of the rules (Savage World Deluxe) and, if possible, the Explorer's Edition of the rules for the Incapacitation rules. I still use those.

But that's just me.
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TheLoremaster
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Joined: 27 Jun 2003
Posts: 2029
Location: Buffalo, NY

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: Combat and calculating damage ? Reply with quote

Dr_Hell wrote:
an ordinary mook with like d8 in shooting could kill a player in one shoot


Dr_Hell wrote:
... the mook hade a winchester 73 thats 2d8+1 damage

"Well, there's your problem ..." Wink

In addition to what's been said, I would say that a character with Shooting: d8 isn't "ordinary". Remember that a d6 is the average Skill value, so a d8 would indicate a better than average shot; not the best around, but formidable. And a weapon that does 2d8+1 damage does an average of around 10 points of damage, easily enough to drop any character with an average Vigor (d6, giving a Toughness: 5).

So, yeah, if the PC didn't take cover, or get out of the way, or aim to shoot first, he's gonna hurt. The damage system can be deadly. I rarely give mooks more than a d6 in anything, saving that for named NPCs and the like.

It sounds like the encounter might have been a bit tougher than you had expected.

Hope that helps!
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 6366

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Combat and calculating damage ? Reply with quote

Dr_Hell wrote:
have we done this wrong or is really deadlans this player deadly ?

Deadlands has always been deadly. Deadlands: Reloaded is less deadly than Deadlands classic, but it is still pretty dangerous.

The best defense against bullets is to not get shot. Cover, concealment, magic, edges, and preemptive violence (shooting the mook first) can all protect your character.
From a Marshal perspective, you need to reevaluate how you plan encounters. A d8 shooting will succeed 5/8 times (62.5%) - that is a lot of hits, and Winchester rifles are very dangerous, typically killing humans in a single solid hit. A d6 shooting will succeed 50% of the time, which is scary but not murderous.
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RJack
Seasoned


Joined: 27 Jun 2006
Posts: 344
Location: Mad Zone, Wiskaton

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it's important to keep in mind that every single time you go into a gunfight in Deadlands, there's a nontrivial chance of getting your damn fool head blown off. As Marshall, you can mitigate this a little by the amount of fate chips you give out, controlling how tough the opposition is, and being open to whatever plans/sneaky ambushes the players come up with, but bottom line, if you play by the rules without any fudging, any campaign is going to end up with a PC bodycount.

ValhallaGH wrote:
The best defense against bullets is to not get shot. Cover, concealment, magic, edges, and preemptive violence (shooting the mook first) can all protect your character.

This too.

Part of it can just be bad luck. In the OP's example we have an ace on the attack roll, an ace on the damage roll, and two successive failed Vigor rolls (with negative modifiers). That happens. I had a character die on the second DLR session I ever ran (gangup bonus is harsh).
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