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Star wars edge too powerful?
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Bloodwork
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:06 pm    Post subject: Star wars edge too powerful? Reply with quote

I'm probably going to end up running a Star Wars conversion and I wanted to make a new Professional Edge.

While I like the idea of using the SWEX Arcane Background rules with power points as I feel it reflects that using the force requires effort, I don't want to use the Deflection power to simulate deflecting blaster fire. Thus, the following:

The edge would allow the character to use his Parry score to defend against blaster fire while armed with a lightsaber and not surprised. In addition, he can deflect the fire to another target as a ranged attack action (essentially putting a blaster in his hand). The user is also subject to the gang-up penalty when under fire from multiple sources in the same round.

Is this too powerful? One way to limit this would be to make it unusable if the character is Shaken but I'm not sure. Another problem would be when does the return attack happen? On the attackers turn or on the users? Should the user also be on Hold?

Please note I don't want to get into a debate about Star Wars or why I should be using the NE rules instead. I'm looking for things I haven't considered that might cause problems later on.

Any thoughts are appreciated.
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JackMann
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the least, I'd split this into two edges; one to deflect, and one to re-direct.
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kreider204
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a single edge, it does seem a bit powerful. Break it up into a couple of edges, though, and I think it would be fine. The Novice edge could be the one that allows the Jedi to use his Parry against blaster fire; the Seasoned edge (which requires the Novice edge as a pre-requisite) could be the one that redirects the blaster shot to another target. Certainly the Seasoned edge could not be used it the Jedi were Shaken, but I'd probably still allow the Novice one while Shaken. As far as the deflected attack, it makes sense that it would happen right after the initial attack, but I do think that the Jedi should have to have won initiative and be on hold.

Just my 2 cents, etc.
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Sushi
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe limit how many incoming shots can be deflected/reflected in a round?
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Bloodwork
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The number of incoming shots to be parried would be limited by using the Gang-Up bonus. This means that if the opposition has overwhelming numbers, they go down. As for directing where the blast goes, that would be one per round as per a standard attack.

The problem with making a second Edge to direct the blast is that the user could just use a blaster in one hand and a lightsaber in the other with the same effect. I know Jedi generally eschew blasters but mechanically speaking there would be no reason to take the second edge.
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kreider204
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, they'd have to fire the blaster with the off-hand penalty - so that's a mechanical reason to have the second edge (no such penalty). It would also allow them to wield two-handed light sabers, or two light sabers.
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robert4818
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Star wars edge too powerful? Reply with quote

Bloodwork wrote:
I'm probably going to end up running a Star Wars conversion and I wanted to make a new Professional Edge.

While I like the idea of using the SWEX Arcane Background rules with power points as I feel it reflects that using the force requires effort, I don't want to use the Deflection power to simulate deflecting blaster fire. Thus, the following:

The edge would allow the character to use his Parry score to defend against blaster fire while armed with a lightsaber and not surprised. In addition, he can deflect the fire to another target as a ranged attack action (essentially putting a blaster in his hand). The user is also subject to the gang-up penalty when under fire from multiple sources in the same round.

Is this too powerful? One way to limit this would be to make it unusable if the character is Shaken but I'm not sure. Another problem would be when does the return attack happen? On the attackers turn or on the users? Should the user also be on Hold?

Please note I don't want to get into a debate about Star Wars or why I should be using the NE rules instead. I'm looking for things I haven't considered that might cause problems later on.

Any thoughts are appreciated.


I would go the following route:

A character with AB(Jedi) can attempt to deflect blaster shots if he is not surprised, and armed with a light saber. To do so, they roll fighting against the number rolled to hit them. If they score a raise against that number, they may use it to redirect the blaster shot towards an extra.

If a player has acted already in the turn, the fighting roll suffers the character's MAP with an additional -2 penalty per fighting attack rolled until initiative cards are dealt again.

If a player has NOT acted already, then the first fighting attack is made as normal, with additional ones made with a cumiulative -2 MAP. When his card comes up for action, he starts off with the MAP of last fighting attack, in addition to whatever MAP he may genearte while acting.
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JackMann
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2011 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the contrary, Blood, there's a very good reason the edge would remain competitive. This edge lets you attack reactively, up to four times a round. That means no multi-action penalty. As well, you can make it a fighting roll, meaning they don't have to focus their skill points in a skill they wouldn't otherwise use. Is it a bit situational? Sure. You've gotta have someone fire at you and miss to take advantage of it. The more people firing at you, the worse your odds of them missing. But on those occasions when it works, this can be a pretty powerful ability. Not a terrible use of your edges.

And, of course, they can always do both if they really want. Have a light saber in one hand, a blaster in the other, and these edges. Granted, since you'd also want two-fisted (and possibly ambidextrous), this is a bit edge-intensive. But it also lets you make a potential six attacks per round, five them at range. That ain't bad.
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Bloodwork
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll definitely keep the redirect to 1 per round as it would be a repeated action otherwise.

As for the kind of test to redirect it back, I'd like to keep it with Shooting as it would use the ranged rules (TN 4 plus modifiers). Since the Shooting skill doesn't seem to teach how to use a weapon (a bow is much different from a gun) I'm assuming it is more about how to hit a target at range, which is what you are trying to do with the redirect. Also this prevents over-specialisation.
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Bloodwork
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe the second edge could provide 1 free redirect per round. The First Strike edge provides a similar thing without having to worry about the multi-action penalty or whose turn it is.
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Tavis
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm also in the 'multiple edges' camp.

The First to allow the deflection, and I feel that making a fighting roll against the number rolled to hit works best here as long as the roll actually was a hit. This means that a shot can be wide enough that it need not be parried, and (with later edges) cannot be deflected.

If the character shot at has the Dodge edge (or the Improved version) that would also apply for the 'hit or miss' calculation before the 'second chance' parry could be applied. Of course, if the character has the subsequent 'redirect' edge, then they might want to hold still to allow the redirections, and thus they should be allowed to 'switch off' their Dodge edges in this case, to make a hit, and thus a re-direct, more likely.


The Second to allow the redirection of the first attack in a round. I'd be tempted to use Fighting to redirect the attack, and with a relatively short range (2/4/8 or 3/6/12) I can see a good argument for using Shooting in this case, but I wouldn't allow the Marksman or Trademark Weapon edges to apply to the shots if that were the case. The reason that I'd use Fighting myself is that if a character is investing several edges in being able to use his 'special' melee weapon well, they shouldn't also 'need' to invest in becoming a crack shot too.

Then a Third edge to allow the redirection of multiple blasts, requiring a -2 penalty to whatever the 'activating' roll might be (essentially the Autofire Penalty)
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Timon
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thinking this through, I can see this being used where the Jedi is also in melee. I would then be inclined to allow deflection/redirection, but want two fighting rolls and apply the MAP to both.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I handled it thusly:
Savage Star Wars by Me wrote:
Jedi Defense (Combat)
Requirements: Novice, Arcane Background (Force Sensitive), Jedi/Sith Tradition, Fighting d6+, Notice d6+
Light sabers are famous for their ability to deflect blaster shots.
You gain +1 Parry while armed with a sword-like weapon. Additionally, when using a light saber (or other reflective hand weapon, Game Master call) and aware of your attacker(s), opponents using ranged attacks against you have to hit your Parry defense instead of TN 4.

Improved Jedi Defense (Combat)
Requirements: Seasoned, Jedi Defense
Having mastered blaster bolt deflection, your hero has moved on to reflection.
When an opponent misses you with a blaster, you may reflect his ranged attack as a free action. Make a Use the Force check, modified by range and lighting (like you were firing the weapon); on a success you strike your attacker (or a target within a Medium Burst of yourself) and roll damage as if you’d fired his weapon. A raise on this roll gives you +d6 damage.
Successive reflections in a round have a -1 after the first.


Best of luck.
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jpk
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might've gone just slightly differently from Valhalla's solution.

I think the +1 Parry (which also applies to the Parry-instead-of-4) is a little too much. Parry instead of 4 rocks as it is, really. Now, this Edge is a better deal than taking Dodge and Improved Dodge and Block, with reasonably low requirements.

I would probably go with a cumulative -2 rather than -1 for Improved just to stay more in line with existing "multiple use" penalties.

And a flat range instead of the "within a Medium Burst of yourself" would be clearly while hitting the same mark. You could even give it a range based on an Attribute (or a half-Attribute) if you like.

I think a natural extension for those two would be a Legendary option that removes the multiple reflections penalty. Bounce all you like.

Let us know what you settle on.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jpk wrote:
I might've gone just slightly differently from Valhalla's solution.

And it's all good advice.

Part of my issue is that no one has played a Force user yet, so I haven't gotten to test those rules. Everything else has worked great, though.
The other issue is the constant perception issues - "Jedi are super-awesome so they should be more awesome than anyone else in the party, why am I not winning with my Jedi character?" It's tricky to make edges that let them be effective without making them overpowered - especially since their (source material) abilities are all PLOT.
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jpk
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, I'm shocked you've not had any force users yet. Then again, I'm in a Dresden Files game that took three character replacements before we ended up with a wizard, so go figure.

And the way I look at it, if Jedi are so super-awesome, why are there only a dozen of 'em left (at best)? And if you're earlier, they let themselves get wiped out by a pensioner bureaucrat and a pouty kid. Seriously...sooo not awesome. Nifty? Pretty? Cool? Sure. Awesome? They can't even die with any thoroughness, for pity's sake!

But, again, that may just be me.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jpk wrote:
And if you're earlier, they let themselves get wiped out by a pensioner bureaucrat and a pouty kid.

Don't forget the clone army. That didn't hurt.
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Timon
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hands up all the people that didn't know Joel was from the Dark Side
<chirp> </chirp>
Actually I agree. Any organisation that hires teenagers and then expects them not to have...other interests.... deserves to die: its evolution in action.
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Bloodwork
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Don't forget the clone army. That didn't hurt.

That's why I included the Gang-Up rule. When they died in that movie it was usually due to overwhelming numbers (and surprise).

One of the ways I'm looking at the balance is that it's kind of like carrying around their own cover, as they don't really use regular cover. A user with a fighting of d8 (probably the minimum required to take the Edge) would have a Parry of 6 (with no other edges like Block) which is equivalent to having Medium cover from a ranged attack. Not too bad.
However, a master with a d12 and Improved Block would have a 10 which is equivalent to having Near Total Cover. I admit this is getting kind of crazy. The most important balancing factor in this case is the Gang-Up bonus, it forces the user to stay on the move and means they are still vulnerable to being overwhelmed.

I would probably use the same range as the original weapon type just to keep it FFF.
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PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2011 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and for my money, I don't think it ought to work while Shaken. I know that goes against the general "Shaken doesn't affect your defenses" paradigm, but it's a gut feel-genre ambiance thing for me.

And another thing, if you're basically running the high police force in the galaxy and are universally loved and respected, while the other side only ever has two guys who have to hide in the shadows and presumably eat really crappy take-out because they're not welcome in good restaurants, why on earth would you think "bringing balance to the force" was a good thing? Pinheads.

Again, I may've outed my sympathies in the Jedi-Sith debate.
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