Username:    Password:      Remember me       
Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
Discussion Forum for PEG/GWG
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Generic Professional Edge

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW General Chat & Game Stories
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Zadmar
Legendary


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 2457
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:48 am    Post subject: Generic Professional Edge Reply with quote

I very much like the mechanics of the Professional Edges, because the flat +2 bonus most of them receive negates the vast majority of "silly mistakes" that a skilled professional would be unlikely to make, and Common Knowledge covers professions that don't have explicit skills (such as chef, jeweller, carpenter, etc).

However not all skills are covered by Professional Edges. If I want to play a veteran lifeguard, or a professional gambler, I'd need to negotiate a new Edge with the GM in order to be on equal footing with a professional thief or woodsman.

So I was thinking of adding a new generic Professional Edge:

Quote:
Specialist

Requirements: Novice, Linked Attribute d6+, Chosen Skill d8+

Select one noncombat skill. This edge gives you a +2 bonus to that skill. You are always considered to be familiar with subjects related to this skill when making Common Knowledge rolls. This edge can be taken multiple times, applying it to a different skill each time.

Sweet and simple. Perhaps a little underpowered, but I think that's fine - there's no reason why it couldn't be negotiated further with the GM, for example allowing it to work on two skills but only in a specific environment, or only for specific usage.

This would also make it easier to justify 77IM's NPC categorisation of "untrained" (d4-2), "trained" (d6+0) and "expert" (d8+2). If a player asks why they can never be as good at swimming at the veteran lifeguard, they can simply be pointed to the Specialist edge.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
zamboni
Novice


Joined: 11 Aug 2011
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like that a lot, Zadmar. I am just getting started in SW, but I see how this edge would be great, especially for the character actor type if not the power gamer.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Erpegis
Novice


Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really think that it fits the idea behind Professional Edges. To me they're supposed to generate specific archetypes, like in western it would make sense to have a 'Sheriff' or 'Saloon Girl' Edge, or Mass Effect could have 'Spectre', 'Asari Commando', or 'Information Broker' (though the last one would be just renamed Investigator).

In for instance a Space Opera, even though you might find a water world, 'expert swimmer' isn't for me a feasible character archetype. An 'enviromentalist commando' (+2 Swimming, +2 Climbing, uses higher of Survival or Vigor to resist environmental conditions) might be a better idea. A general Edge is a bit boring, IMO. In the water-covered world of 50 Fathoms, there is a (Background, not Professional) Edge that improves swimming skill and how long you can keep your breath - because it's relevant there.

Also nothing says that your professional Edges have anything to do with your Common Knowledge. You might declare your character to be a paladin without the Champion edge.

That said, it's just my private thoughts, and if you think differently, keep it! In fact, this is a good and simple starting point for customizing your own Edges.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ogbendog
Legendary


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 2476

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I seem to recall that part of point of a setting is setting specific professional edges.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Legendary


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 2457
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erpegis wrote:
I don't really think that it fits the idea behind Professional Edges. To me they're supposed to generate specific archetypes, like in western it would make sense to have a 'Sheriff' or 'Saloon Girl' Edge, or Mass Effect could have 'Spectre', 'Asari Commando', or 'Information Broker' (though the last one would be just renamed Investigator).

SWD describes it thus: "Professional Edges are very special abilities that reflect many years of practicing a particular trade ... These Edges help you create a character who is far more competent in his chosen field than most others ... Professional Edges represent many years of training".

The archetypes are listed on pages 18-19, and while some of them have Professional Edges, they don't all. I'm not sure a "Saloon Girl" requires years of practice and training, and I doubt I'd give her a Professional Edge, but she could certainly be an archetype.

Erpegis wrote:
Also nothing says that your professional Edges have anything to do with your Common Knowledge.

Not directly perhaps, but the section on Common Knowledges states that "If a characterís background suggests he should know something about a subject and he must make a roll, add +2 if most in his area or profession would know the answer."

As Professional Edges "reflect many years of practicing a particular trade", I think it's reasonable to clarify that they help Common Knowledge rolls. It also gives Specialisation a little extra flavour.

ogbendog wrote:
I seem to recall that part of point of a setting is setting specific professional edges.

SWD mentions that "You may want to create some new Edges & Hindrances for your setting", but that "you probably donít have to", and warns that adding too many "moves the game away from what itís supposed to be: streamlined fun".

I wouldn't want to add a new edge for each and every profession. But I also don't like the idea of blocking players from certain professions. This seems like a reasonable compromise.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Timon
Heroic


Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 1112
Location: Haarlem in the Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it makes perfect sense, but it is a GM tool, like the race-creation rules to enable you to baseline a professional skill. I actually think it should, as most of the professional edges do, require an Edge (or AB) and two related skills, or a skill and an attribute at d6+. You will always need to tune this with the player. To test:

Verticalist
Strength d6+, Agility d6+, Climbing d6
The character is an experienced climber, Alpine or urban and has +2 on all climbing rolls. If using equipment the Verticalist also gives teammates roped to him +1 on all climbing rolls.
_________________
Biting! It's like kissing but there's a winner!
The Doctor's Wife
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ValhallaGH
Legendary


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 6412

PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Timon wrote:
Verticalist
Strength d6+, Agility d6+, Climbing d6
The character is an experienced climber, Alpine or urban and has +2 on all climbing rolls. If using equipment the Verticalist also gives teammates roped to him +1 on all climbing rolls.

As a player, I'd rather snag Thief. More benefits, more general utility, gives the same core benefit (climbing +2), and feels like less of a waste of my precious character resources.


That's my principle issue with this idea - that it's a waste of a player's very limited character resources. Note that existing Professional edges either apply to two or three skills, or they increase your combat abilities directly. Some, like Ace, do both (+2 to Boating, Driving, Piloting, and provides the ability to soak wounds to vehicles). Simply getting a +2 to a single skill makes this edge a waste of options - unless there is one skill that is just amazing; and God help you if the Persuasion Monster decides to use this option as well - d4+10 is going to be an unstoppable social master.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Timon
Heroic


Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Posts: 1112
Location: Haarlem in the Netherlands

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though it was a test and not an edge I would seriously propose, I must admit that I prefer players not to minimax too much, but to start from a character concept, ie he's a fanatical builderer. He does not steal things and has no experience of breaking into buildings so he has no lock-picking skills, maybe some stealth from climbing buildings illegally. I would certainly negotiate a professional edge to suit a good concept and try to make it advantageous in play.

I always assumed that Thief, Wizard and Rang.. sorry Woodsman are primarily there to let you import characters from a class-based system into SW.
_________________
Biting! It's like kissing but there's a winner!
The Doctor's Wife
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Legendary


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 2457
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Timon wrote:
Verticalist
Strength d6+, Agility d6+, Climbing d6
The character is an experienced climber, Alpine or urban and has +2 on all climbing rolls. If using equipment the Verticalist also gives teammates roped to him +1 on all climbing rolls.

As a player, I'd rather snag Thief. More benefits, more general utility, gives the same core benefit (climbing +2), and feels like less of a waste of my precious character resources.

Thief gives a lot of benefits, but it also has a lot of requirements. If you don't meet those requirements (particularly Agility, as you can only raise one attribute per rank) you may not want to spend all those advances, particularly if you don't feel they fit your character concept.

ValhallaGH wrote:
That's my principle issue with this idea - that it's a waste of a player's very limited character resources.

One advance to give you a flat +2 bonus to a specific skill. Or one advance to raise that skill over its linked attribute by one die step. I'd take the +2 bonus any day. In fact I almost wonder if the edge should be limited somehow, perhaps allowing each player to only take it once or twice.

ValhallaGH wrote:
Simply getting a +2 to a single skill makes this edge a waste of options

What about Alertness? That only gives +2 Notice. A few of my players have taken it in the past, and I certainly don't consider it a waste.

ValhallaGH wrote:
God help you if the Persuasion Monster decides to use this option as well - d4+10 is going to be an unstoppable social master.

They'd need at least d8 to qualify for the edge. It would also only affect Persuasion, as opposed to Attractive, Very Attractive, Charismatic and Noble, which give the bonus to Charisma in general.

However you only need +6 to guarantee two raises on anything other than snake eyes anyway. So if you're worried about players min-maxing social characters, I'd suggest restricting the Social edges.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ogbendog
Legendary


Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 2476

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alertness gives +2 to only one skill, becuase Notice is a very useful skill.

Signature Weapon gives +1 with a specific weapon, because combat skills are even more useful.

I also think professional skills should apply in limited circumstances. Skills are very broad, but professional edges let you apply some focus. Sure, several people have stealth, but in towns, the theif edge rules. in the forest, it's the woodsman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wibbs
Veteran


Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 647
Location: London

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder whether the issue here is simply what the edge is called. I agree that Professional Edges should be specifically used to define archtypes in the setting being run, but equally I can see that the Specialst Edge could sit along side these, and not necessarily replace them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clint
Site Admin


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 18190

PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
ogbendog wrote:
I seem to recall that part of point of a setting is setting specific professional edges.

SWD mentions that "You may want to create some new Edges & Hindrances for your setting", but that "you probably donít have to", and warns that adding too many "moves the game away from what itís supposed to be: streamlined fun".


To be fair, the very next paragraph after the "you probably don't have to" starts with...

"What you really may want to look at are Professional Edges. These help you create the archetypal characters of your world."

And the complete sentence from the "streamlined fun" quote is, "Itís not a good idea to go scouring every other book weíve done and import all the Combat Edges into your worldóitís overwhelming to the players, unnecessary, and moves the game away from what itís supposed to be: streamlined fun." Where that is a specific reference to importing "all the Combat Edges."

So while we suggest avoiding most Edges and especially extraneous Combat Edges, ogbendog is not incorrect in that when creating a setting, Professional Edges really do help define the characters within it. That's kind of what the three paragraphs in between those are talking about.

If you want to create a "Generic Edge" as a basis for making Professsional Edges, that'll probably work out, but it's important to remember that not all skills work the same way, so a +2 bonus can mean different things to different skills. Not to mention a flat bonus may not reflect the profession properly.

Take the lifeguard for instance. Consider these two options for a professional lifeguard...

Lifeguard
Requirements: Novice, Agility d6+, Swimming d8+

Gains a +2 to Swimming rolls.

Lifeguard
Requirements: Novice, Agility d6+, Vigor d6+, Healing d6+, Swimming d8+

Ignores -2 penalty to Swimming for carrying another, doubles time they can hold their breath, choppy water does not count as difficult terrain, and gains a +2 bonus to Healing for resuscitation (pg. 88).

Now, I just made the latter off the top of my head looking at the write-ups for Swimming and Drowning, and figuring what would a lifeguard actually use, and I think it fits better and provides for some use when the character isn't in the water either (holding breath), but the key is going back to what the skill affects.

When I looked at the flat +2 bonus, I asked myself what will this actually affect in game and does that effect reflect what a lifeguard does. Other than carrying another, most of the benefits to a +2 to Swimming didn't seem to fit a lifeguard, so I looked at what I thought would and based the Edge off that.

Not saying a +2 to Swimming couldn't work as a Professional Edge (for instance, it sounds good for a long distance swimmer based on the effects), but that looking at how the skill works (and mechanics related to it) can lead to a more satisfying Edge.

Ultimately, Professional Edges should be about encouraging the character type for the player more than anything (whatever that type may be).
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
77IM
Heroic


Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 1591
Location: Austin, TX

PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like this; it's somewhat similar to my Talent idea (Talent Edge) but not quite the same.

I do think this version needs some sort of "flavor injection" but I'm not sure what. Maybe require a relevant Common Knowledge background bonus as a prerequisite? Maybe some sort of side-benefit? (I like the Common Knowledge side-benefit but am not sure it's enough.)

I'm not sure that just a flat +2 to one skill is needed. I just scanned SWD and it looks like there are only 3 non-combat skills in the core that don't have explicit bonus-granting edges:
1) Gambling, kind of a lame skill though.
2) Riding, although I think you could use a trapping of Ace to do it ("Horse Ace").
3) Swimming. This one probably should have some sort of edge, maybe a professional Athlete edge that grants +2 on Climb, Swim, and jump checks.

The thing I like about your Specialist edge is that the requirements are slimmer and more focused. Like if you don't care about Stealth or Lockpicking and just want Climbing you could easily get the die up to d8 and then take this edge. But, this very focus also causes the edge to be somewhat bland. I don't have a good suggestion to improve that but will think about it...

-- 77IM
_________________
Stuff I made: Arcane AbilitiesTalent EdgeSavage Fading SunsSavage Wuxia!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Legendary


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 2457
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

77IM wrote:
I'm not sure that just a flat +2 to one skill is needed. I just scanned SWD and it looks like there are only 3 non-combat skills in the core that don't have explicit bonus-granting edges:
1) Gambling, kind of a lame skill though.
2) Riding, although I think you could use a trapping of Ace to do it ("Horse Ace").
3) Swimming. This one probably should have some sort of edge, maybe a professional Athlete edge that grants +2 on Climb, Swim, and jump checks.

Hrm, you've got me thinking...

I once toyed with the idea of having an Athletics skill that worked like Knowledge - so for each campaign I'd create a list of important Athletics and Knowledges for the players to pick from, and everything else would fall under Common Knowledge or Common Athletics.

If I went for that approach, it should be relatively straightforward to create an Athlete edge that worked exactly the same as Scholar, except instead of picking two Knowledges you'd pick two Athletics.

But...if Scholar and Athlete worked the same way anyway, perhaps they could just be rolled into one edge? So you could have a professional athlete with +2 Athletics (Climbing) and +2 Athletics (Swimming), or a horse whisperer with +2 Athletics (Riding) and +2 Knowledge (Horses), etc.

77IM wrote:
The thing I like about your Specialist edge is that the requirements are slimmer and more focused. Like if you don't care about Stealth or Lockpicking and just want Climbing you could easily get the die up to d8 and then take this edge. But, this very focus also causes the edge to be somewhat bland.

It's very difficult to give it much flavour while making it generic enough to apply to a wide range of skills. For example Clint's Lifeguard edge is really nice, but it's also heavily tailored to a specific skill set.

I really started thinking about this subject when I was designing my NPC generator. I know that NPCs don't have to follow the same creation rules as PCs, but I prefer it if they do, particularly if the PCs are running them as Extras.

Your NPC categorisation of skill levels (d4-2 -> d6 -> d8+2) works great on the fly, but when I wanted to adapt it to "by the book" characters it became more difficult. For example I wanted doctors to have a +2 bonus on Knowledge (Medicine), but that requires Scholar, which requires two Knowledges at d8+. So I had to make up more specialised Knowledges for them like Surgery, Dentistry, etc. The same with Lawyers and their Knowledge (Law), Engineers with their Knowledge (Engineering), Occultists with their Knowledge (Occult), etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW General Chat & Game Stories All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum