Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[Sidney]

Notice: this isn't about 2 handed weapons being underpowered (which they very well may be, but still) but about the balance between different 2h weapons.

As you all know, the 3 major 2 handed weapons (sword, mace, axe) all share some traits - basically they all grant -1 parry -, while having their peculiar abilities.

Comparing the Greataxe and Maul in particular shows that:

- the Maul deals less damage (d, but has twice the armor penetration, only against rigid armor.
- the Axe does more damage (d10), and has 1 AP against every kind of armor.

Balance here is already potentially a bit off the hook - assuming EVERY armor in the setting is rigid, the two weapons have the same damage output. In short, there's no situation where the Maul is better, not even heavy armor.

Now add to the equation the 2 handed Sword. The redhead stepchild of the 2 hander family deals a d10 damage, with no AP at all.

Now it's clear the Axe is massively better than anything else (it's as good as the maul against rigid armor targets, and both are "+1" compared to the sword; it's "+1" compared to the sword against all other targets, and "+2" compared to the maul).
The maul and sword are somewhat balanced - sometimes one is at +1, sometimes the other is. The Axe is the outlier here.


Now while it may seem that changing the Greataxe would be the first goal, that's hardly possible - make the Greataxe d8 damage and AP1, and it's balanced vs the Maul and slightly worse than the sword. Plus, lowering its damage would A) bring it too close to 1 handed weapons and B) punish an already weak class of weapons.

A proposed revision could be:

- Greataxe: leave it as it is, as its relative power level is ideal.

- Maul: increasing it to d10 damage would fix it compared to the Greataxe (+1 vs rigid armor, -1 vs everything else)

- Greatsword: here you got two options. Either you state that the biggest advantage of swords is their flexibility in use, and say it's d10, no AP, but make it lose the Parry penality (my favourite option to be honest); or you try to fix it in damage, but it's a lot trickier. You could give it a d12 damage with no AP, which would keep it balanced with the Maul but make it a bit better than the Axe. Or you could make it deal d8+2 damage instead of d10 - giving it a slightly better chance of exploding damage and a slightly higher average damage to offset the lack of AP.

Ideas?

[Pariah74]

[Sidney]

[Pariah74]

Oh my god.

YES, all characters using these weapons have a d10 (well I ahve seen some d8s but that's an exception)

SO the point here is that they deal 2d10 when they attack. At that level, of damage the differences become completely minor, so yes WEIGHT is just as much of a factor as AP.

Also, reign in the snark. I am plenty intelligent, and so were all the people who tested Savage Worlds, and have played it for multiple years.

Good lord.
_________________
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax

[Enno]

Who says, that these weapon types have to be balanced to one another?
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There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.

[Pariah74]

[operations]

Savage Worlds is not about balanced weapons. Savage Worlds is about FFF, and in a FFF game the general rule for weapons are;

more weight/larger caliber = more damage

Do you complain that the Greatsword in D&D is not balanced against the Maul and Greataxe too? Guess what, they are not. Each one is clearly better in their right situations (Greastsword for accuracy, Greataxe for potential damage output).

Savage Worlds is not a real life simulator. It is a simulator of cinematic awesome.
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~~KT~~

[Sidney]

[Zadmar]

[marshal kt]

I'm totally lost on what the OP wants.
Balance of weapons vs each other?
That's not possible, because it's not real.
Swords parry better than axes & mauls.
Real axes, not fantasy Conan-esque double-headed axe, punched through armor, no matter the style.
Mauls were just huge hammers and did damage over a larger area [vs other weapons].
Swords were more expensive to make. Requiring more craftsmenshp and materials to make.

Also different countries, had different styles of weapons.
Far East vs Middle East vs Europe.
Calvary vs infantry.

What do you want to balance when nothing is the same?

It's like saying I wish apples tasted like oranges.
_________________
"I'm Hotep"

[Sidney]

[amerigoV]

[Pariah74]

Well we haven't seen the sonic wrench yet, have we? Hell, we probably have and I should know better than tempting geeks on an RPG site like that in this day and age.
_________________
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax

[marshal kt]

[ogbendog]

Swords have 2 other advantages.

you can sheath a sword. Hard to climb a ladder while holding a maul or axe

swords are also more socially acceptable

[marshal kt]

2 hand swords sheathe over the back.
Mauls & axes can also, using a thong.

Depending on the country and time period, swords aren't always acceptable. JUst like guns in the old west. Some town yes, others no.
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"I'm Hotep"

[canology]

Aren't two-handed swords traditionally used in a more "parry friendly" position than mauls or axes? It seems that you could make an argument that 2h swords don't deserve the -1 to parry, simply because they are wielded differently.

For what it's worth, balance means very little to me, I just think the -1 to parry is unrealistic for 2h swords.

[marshal kt]

as someone who's fought with and against 2 handers in RL, no -1 parry is about right. They're alot slower than 1 hand swords.

that's typical tradional european swords. asian swords are a completely different animal.

greatswords have quillons, some times 2 pairs so you can choke up on the length to get more leverage.

no daichis just have a long grip with 1 guard.

greatswords have the balance in the mid to end of the blade, like axes & mauls.

No daichis have the balance closer to the cross guard. [whose name escapes me atm.]
_________________
"I'm Hotep"

[Zadmar]

[ogbendog]

someone pointed out once that if you use a spear with wild attack, you end up with st+d6+2 and -1 parry
d6+2 is about the same as d10.