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SPC heavy armor for street campaign
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OJ
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:26 pm    Post subject: SPC heavy armor for street campaign Reply with quote

I'm running a "Bat-guy" level campaign, and I want the Heavy Armor suits to be available to my players. For this game, however, the Heavy Armor and Heavy Damage rules feel a bit wrong.

Against a vehicle, an Uzi burst leaving a Heavy Armored target unaffected seems plausible, but you would think a Duraweave armored target might be doubled over with pain.

So how does this sound? Non-heavy attacks against an individual in Heavy armor does non-lethal damage to the target.

This would be a "street-level" only setting rule, so Iron Dude wouldn't have to worry, but Punishing Dude would definitely feel the hit.

Any thoughts? Improvements? #gunbattle
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seanwalsh
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nonlethal Wounds are treated almost exactly the same as lethal Wounds. Under your suggestion the only benefit Heavy Armor would grant is to avoid death.

If you want ordinary weapons to have an effect on living targets with Heavy Armor, why not just say Heavy Armor prevents Wounds from ordinary weapons. If they attack a living target with Heavy Armor and their weapon is not a Heavy Weapon, the target can only become be Shaken.

Shaken could represent the pain you are talking about. It would have an effect, but the effect would not be permanent.
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OJ
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a bad idea, seanwalsh...
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Tavis
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd agree with this.

However if the goal is that you want to make sure that the Heavy Armour doesn't allow for any wounds from normal weapons, but are allowing shaken results, you'll probably also want Heavy Armour to also give the "Hardy" monstrous ability against normal weapon attacks.

This will mean that normal weapon attacks can only ever cause a shaken result, and if the Heavy Armour wearer is already shaken for any reason then they won't be taking a wound for a second shaken result.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tavis wrote:
I'd agree with this.

However if the goal is that you want to make sure that the Heavy Armour doesn't allow for any wounds from normal weapons, but are allowing shaken results, you'll probably also want Heavy Armour to also give the "Hardy" monstrous ability against normal weapon attacks.

Unneccessary complication.
"Non-heavy weapons can never cause a wound to targets with Heavy Armor."

If some player tries to argue double-shaken = wounded, point to never and smile evilly.
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Timon
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those of you without a smile as evil as Valhallaha's he has photographs available at reasonable prices. Twisted Evil
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OJ
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

At this point, I'm thinking of just removing sets of Heavy Armor from the gadget list for personal use. I'll allow Heavy Armor as a modifier to powers of course, and thus inventions, but it seems like my street game will be better without all of my PC's being bullet-proof pill
boxes.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An alternative house rule I once saw proposed on these forums is to use the rules for breaking inanimate objects when a non-Heavy Weapon hits someone in Heavy Armour. In other words, the attack and damage rolls don't ace.

You could also combine that with your nonlethal damage idea.

Because vehicles tend to have a lot of armour, this means the Uzi would just bounce off as normal. But unless the human had a lot of armour and/or a high Toughness, they could still get hurt.

Heavy Armour would still be very useful, but it wouldn't make you bullet-proof.
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OJ
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2012 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar, that's kind of brilliant. That just might be my fix.
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kronovan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
An alternative house rule I once saw proposed on these forums is to use the rules for breaking inanimate objects when a non-Heavy Weapon hits someone in Heavy Armour. In other words, the attack and damage rolls don't ace.


Typically I just ensure my heroes will eventually come against some HW weilding foes, but I do like this idea and can see it working . I would however allow wounding to the point of incapacitation, but I'd also go with the "Recurring Roles" environment option so that PC's never die. I haven't found it much of a problem in my games if the occassional party member falls and I usually build something into my adventures to account for it's occranced. As long as the team has a HQ that can add a healing bonus, it shouldn't throw too big of a wrench in things.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronovan wrote:
Typically I just ensure my heroes will eventually come against some HW weilding foes,

The problem is that until they do, you can't actually hurt them, unless they've got vulnerable points you can hit with a called shot (which, depending on their modifiers and trappings, they may not have).

You can mess the players around a bit with tricks, taunt, entangle, that sort of thing, but it gets a bit boring if there's no real threat. On the other hand, if you give all the enemies Heavy Weapons then the players may just feel they've wasted 2 PP.

The house rule means that opponents can still be a threat without Heavy Weapons, but it leaves Heavy Armour with enough of an advantage that those who've bought it feel like tough guys.
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kronovan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
The problem is that until they do, you can't actually hurt them, unless they've got vulnerable points you can hit with a called shot (which, depending on their modifiers and trappings, they may not have).

I'm usually careful to make sure at least 1 mook/extra has that kind of skill and the means/skill to discern a PC has an unprotected spot. That does take creating adversary extras that are outside of the standard mooks though.

Quote:
On the other hand, if you give all the enemies Heavy Weapons then the players may just feel they've wasted 2 PP.

I'm not following you here; I can't think of many scenarios where a PC would feel they've wasted 2 PP just because they're coming up against a HW wielding foe. I could see them possibly feeling they wasted $ on heavy armor that isn't going to protect them nearly as effectively. But maybe I'm just not envisioning the scenario?

Quote:
The house rule means that opponents can still be a threat without Heavy Weapons, but it leaves Heavy Armour with enough of an advantage that those who've bought it feel like tough guys.

Yep, good point. That is one of the setbacks to having too many HW weilding foes - HW deflation / impotency.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronovan wrote:
I'm not following you here; I can't think of many scenarios where a PC would feel they've wasted 2 PP just because they're coming up against a HW wielding foe.

Because if the foe has a Heavy Weapon, there's no benefit from having Heavy Armour, and it's a +2 PP modifier - the player could have bought an extra 3 points of armour instead.

Heavy Armour is only useful against people who don't have Heavy Weapons.
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Timon
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had this problem with Necessary Evil - it seemed like everyone and his old mum had HeroKiller heavy munitions. It seemed as if we could have skipped the heavy part alltogether, so I shall probably adopt the inanimate heavy armour rule, very elegant.
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Zadmar
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Necessary Evil also has a quite a few high-AP weapons - even the HeroKiller pistol has AP3, while the V'sori blaster weapons have AP4. So if you're going to take Armor, you really want to get it as high as possible.

One of my players had Altered Form and full Armor, giving him 13 points of armour vs physical attacks, and he did pretty well. His Heavy Armour didn't come into play much, except in a few situations where the party were fighting human enemies with mixed weapons (but even then, the enemies tended to change target once they realised they couldn't hurt him). I guess he could have used his Heavy Armour to protect him while setting off grenades in his hands during melee, but he and his duplicate were usually too busy slicing and dicing with their paired vibro-swords.

I still haven't picked up the SPC, but I was under the impression that both Heavy Weapons and Heavy Armour were much less common than in NE. If so, I think the house rule would be a lot more viable.
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Huppolitan
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OJ, I am about to start an SPC game, and I'm starting with training wheels -- no Heavy Armor for PCs through gear or powers. The HA modifier creates an unnecessary have/have not divide in the game, and takes mooks out of play unless they are implausibly geared-up. And who doesn't love mooks? My players and I have very little interest in vehicular combat, so that aspect of Heavy Armor is not an issue.
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shinryu
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bit of a necro, but I've been thinking on this issue for Heavy Armor for persons and in particular some systems (Shadowrun, GURPS, etc.) that simulate blunt trauma for things like Kevlar vests and the like. I'm wondering if maybe something like either of the following options might capture that sort of flavor:

1) Wounds to characters in Heavy Armor from non-Heavy Weapons translate to Bumps and Bruises Fatigue; the bullet may not go in but it sure as hell hurts to get shot. Presumably one could not be Incapacitated by Bumps and Bruises, but wounds might start becoming Wounds at that point as the bruised ribs go to cracked ones. This does have the disadvantage of causing the odd situation of being at less of an action penalty from being cleanly shot than it does from being slowly beaten to death in your armor, but you do effectively get 5 wounds over 3, so maybe it evens out.

2) Simply allowing Heavy Armor to render the character Hardy vs. non-Heavy Weapons; if it doesn't penetrate enough to genuinely wound you it just isn't going to make a difference even though it still hurts when you're hit (e.g., you can still be Shaken). Or, alternatively, allowing the character to ignore Shaken results from non-Heavy Weapons might be interesting though in a bit of the other direction; if it doesn't penetrate, you don't really care about it.
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shinryu wrote:
Bit of a necro, but I've been thinking on this issue for Heavy Armor for persons and in particular some systems (Shadowrun, GURPS, etc.) that simulate blunt trauma for things like Kevlar vests and the like. I'm wondering if maybe something like either of the following options might capture that sort of flavor:

What sort of flavor? Having lethal and non-lethal hit points? Allowing a 9mm to kill anything and everything?

Or are you looking to translate that mechanic?
Heavy Armor is intended to represent those things that cannot be harmed by normal weaponry. Using it as a mechanic for Kevlar is ... insulting to both Kevlar and to heavy armor. The SWD rules for Kevlar already make it stupidly good (unrealistically so - after SWD, the AP resistance is only 4, but nothing really changes); adding further complications is wildly unnecessary.
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canology
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am going to go along with Valhalla here.
We seem to forget that even wounds can have "trappings"... maybe the Shaken result you got from being shot while wearing a Kevlar vest is a cracked rib or just some serious bruising, it puts you out of the fight until your adrenaline overcomes the pain (unshaking). Or a Wound caused by the same situation is a broken rib and internal bruising.
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shinryu
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
shinryu wrote:
Bit of a necro, but I've been thinking on this issue for Heavy Armor for persons and in particular some systems (Shadowrun, GURPS, etc.) that simulate blunt trauma for things like Kevlar vests and the like. I'm wondering if maybe something like either of the following options might capture that sort of flavor:

What sort of flavor? Having lethal and non-lethal hit points? Allowing a 9mm to kill anything and everything?

Or are you looking to translate that mechanic?
Heavy Armor is intended to represent those things that cannot be harmed by normal weaponry. Using it as a mechanic for Kevlar is ... insulting to both Kevlar and to heavy armor. The SWD rules for Kevlar already make it stupidly good (unrealistically so - after SWD, the AP resistance is only 4, but nothing really changes); adding further complications is wildly unnecessary.


More the mechanic, yes. I don't want non-lethal hit points (redundant) and I don't intend to use it for Kevlar (god no, screw the Kevlar rules, I am better off in Kevlar than in an infantry battlesuit against most weapons despite the battlesuit almost certainly being composed of a great deal of Kevlar, wtf?). I'm thinking more 2 cases:

1) Implanted Armor using the Armor power for robots/cyborgs: I still am not happy with the idea that Armor doesn't stack with worn armor, I kind of hate to just use Toughness bumps, and the idea of a layer of armor that makes you Hardy or at least prevents penetration for a little while (e.g. wounds to Fatigue) is possibly attractive. It's actually almost like a super weird Healing trapping that way, I guess...

2) Heavy personal armor, like say the powered armor in SWD. Really they've got ridiculous toughness (you're almost better off than an APC in those things), so if there was some way to make them a little more vulnerable I'd be ok with that in settings where they are not being worn by the Blood Angels. The Heavy Armor in SPC is reasonable in terms of armor value but definitely overpowered in terms of invincibility to normal weapons for that purpose.

Also, I am always trying to balance to the Worst Case Troll (in Shadowrun terms, Max Body, Titanium Bone Lacing, Orthoskin, Heavy Military Armor). If I can translate things so that he's tough but killable by reasonable means in the parent (in this case, assault cannon) then I think I've done a reasonable translation job. The problem with just granting huge amounts of armor is that the assault cannon can't easily kill him anymore. The problem with granting Heavy Armor is that nothing BUT the assault cannon can kill him anymore. So it's a challenge.
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