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kronovan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darq666 wrote:
I don't want to treat the mecha as characters, per se. I want to handle combat and movement like character combat and movement, not vehicle combat and movement.


Ah, OK I think I see where you going now. I'll just say that ever having to roll 10d20 would be a major minus for me. I've been down the buckets of dice path before with the d6 system and I can say I wouldn't want to go that route again. I guess if 10 dice would be the max ever it could work, but rolls like that are definitely going to slow things down.


Quote:
1) You don't have two sets of rules (Biggest reason)

I don't see it so much as 2 different sets of rules, but as having an additional table you make 2d6 rolls against and a additional character ('Mech) sheet that you track damage and heat on. If you're referring to 2 different scales ('Mech scale Vs Out of Cockpit) for sure there's 2 different of those.

Quote:
2) You don't have to track armor in 10 locations

Actually it's 11 external and 8 internal, but its defnitely much more to consider than the core SW rules. However, even in the core rules you're forced to track 4 different locations if you want to maintain the tech and flavor of Heavy Armor combat. That's because in SW, HA opponents have varying armor for front, sides and rear spec'd in the form Front/Sides/Rear. In some ways you might consider it even more effort, as you also have the AP protection factored as additional stats in the form (Front/Sides/Rear). Which forces you to do the AP protection math realtime whenever calculating the damage.

You could forgo that with mecha as IZ did and just spec a single HA factor with a single parenthesesed AP. That sort of works for that setting (I didnt care for it all for golemmech Vs golemmech combat though) where mecha are small, but IMO that'd be very much out of place for the megaton, hulks you have in BT. I don't care how futuristic tech would be, a 'Mech with 50 toughness is going to have some thickness variation on their armor. Not having thickness variation also wipes out a lot of the fun tactics involved in unit positioning.

I've had a scenario in a Weird Wars Tour of Darkness campaign where a party only armed with a 57mm AP recoiless had to go up against a T-54 with its 40/30/25 (25/15/10) armor. With that recoiless only having an AP10 that meant a successful rear shot or forget it. That encounter was about as lengthy as any of the 1-off battles I've run with SBT.

Quote:
3) You don't have to track damage in 10 locations

I'd say if you want to handle it differently without chucking the hard-Sci flavor of BT to the wind, you could combine the 11 damage locations into 4 as such:

Front = Left Torso + Front Center Torso + Right Torso + Head
Rear = Rear Left Torso + Rear Center Torso + Rear Right Torso
Left Side = Left Arm + Left Leg
Right Side = Right Arm + Right Leg.

Doing anything less that that though, IMO means taking the BT flavor into a Pulp SciFi setting.
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kronovan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

peregry wrote:
In fact, one of the reason the earlier source books paint the Inner Sphere as worse off than it actually was was because ComStar wanted it to look like that in an effort to undermine the Great Houses.

There's an inverse to this a well. In the ComStar sourcebook I have, writing that accurately recounts a specific event is often followed by parenthesed writing representiing ComStars' official public/press statement. The latter often humorously or pathetically contradicts tragic events and paints them with a nice, glossy sheen.
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Darq666
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronovan wrote:
peregry wrote:
In fact, one of the reason the earlier source books paint the Inner Sphere as worse off than it actually was was because ComStar wanted it to look like that in an effort to undermine the Great Houses.

There's an inverse to this a well. In the ComStar sourcebook I have, writing that accurately recounts a specific event is often followed by parenthesed writing representiing ComStars' official public/press statement. The latter often humorously or pathetically contradicts tragic events and paints them with a nice, glossy sheen.

Cool sounds like a book worth digging up!
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Darq666
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to maintain the flavor, but not the focus. I don't want to play a Battletech RPG that is all about Mech combat. That was what put me off of the Mechwarrior RPG. If you think about it, Mech to Mech combat is only a really small sliver of time spent in that universe.

Over a year in the life of a Mechwarrior, how much time do they really spend in Mech combat? in the Old School 3025 world you are probably looking at a dozen or less combats each under an hour. I can't recall any in the books I have read the lasted more than an hour.

I don't want to get bogged down in combat, I am trying to do what SW did for regular RPG combat - fast and furious, an accent to game play, not the end all.
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kronovan
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darq666 wrote:
I want to maintain the flavor, but not the focus. I don't want to play a Battletech RPG that is all about Mech combat. That was what put me off of the Mechwarrior RPG. If you think about it, Mech to Mech combat is only a really small sliver of time spent in that universe.

Agreed, and its why the majority of the adventures I've put together so far take place in Out of Cockpit scale. That said, IMO 2 scales don't really limit character scale adventuring. It actually makes it easier, since as GM you can just choose to structure adventures to not inlcude battles that take place on the 'Mech scale. Heck, you could even have 'Mech battles work with Mass Combat rules if you want that part of the game to be very quick. However, like I said before I'm not too convinced there's much of an audience for that type of approach.

Quote:
I don't want to get bogged down in combat, I am trying to do what SW did for regular RPG combat - fast and furious, an accent to game play, not the end all.

IMO what SW has done in terms of characters VS heavy armor opponents is far more FFF than 99.9% of the PnP's out there. Having to contend with 3 Armor facing values, AP factors, and different ACC/TS movement is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, compared to the complex silliness of other systems like D20 Modern or GUPRS! I think its best to take a balanced approach with some compromises. Failing to do that I think you run the risk of creating something that plays like a "Star Wars without alien races" reskinning of the BattleTech Universe. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a combat lite approach is wrong, but to be mindful that its quite easy to turn a nice, mulltiflavored icecream cone into a plain vanilla one. Wink
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kronovan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While reading BT Total Warfare something I've noted that might need to be changed for SBT is the C3 Computer network, since it impacts one of the more SW adapted aspects of SBT; the To-Hit play mechanics. When you consider that Ganging Up rolls in the core rules grant a +1 bonus per participant up to a nice max of +4, the TW core rules for this seem a bit limited since at best it can only ever grant an equivalent of a +2 bonus via the nullification of a -2 long range penalty. Considering the Ganging Up rule in SWD, for a max sized network comprised of a Master + 3 Slaves the long range nullifier seems a bit stingy, since the equivalent with Gang Up would be a +3.

Something that might work better for SBT, would be to have range penalties reduced as per TW for C3 networks, but for a maximum size network (1 Master + 3 Slaves) have it grant an additional +1 bonus to Gunnery. That way the SBT rule would be in keeping with the TW rules for range penalty reduction, but the bonus for a max network aligns it better with SWD. The same could be true for Company networks, but the size of the network node in which the unit used for determining range exists would decide whether the +1 gunnery gets applied. Itís still possible for a Master + 2 Slaves network to only get a +1 equivalent, or a Max Network only a +2 equivalent, if the situation would only reduce range by 1 increment, but at least the gunnery bonus allows something more along the lines of SWD in an ideal situation. I can see some nice strategy and roleplaying occurring around keeping all unit members in a max network in the fight and healthy. Wink

So, I was thinking maybe a rule like this;

C3 Computer Cooperative Attacks

A C3 Computer Network allows member units to use the shorter distance to a target of another member when determining target range. In order for a C3 network to be active there must be at least 1 unit equipped with a C3 Master computer and 1 unit equipped with a C3 Slave computer. The rule for range reduction works the same as in the core BattleTech rules, with the exception that units that are members of a maximum size network (1 Master unit and 3 Slave units) gain an additional +1 to Gunnery rolls. The same applies for a company C3 network, however, the size of the network node containing the unit used to gain the shorter target range, determines whether the Gunnery bonus is applied.

Anyhow, just a suggestion and some food for thought for campaigns in which Clantech is available.


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kronovan
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per above, but for a C3i Improved network. My thoughts are that the Gunnery bonus would only be give when the maximum 6 C3i members are present.
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peregry
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're talking about it. Thanks for the idea.

As it stands, right now C3 networks do the standard TW thing (range penalties) as well as all units connected by a C3 network are considered to be in the Command Radius for Leadership edges. However, within our games we've not had a heavy push for implementing C3 networks. While the C3 slaves are not to difficult to fit in, the C3 Master is rough to use, requiring a lot a sacrifice. Sweetening the pot might be the best way, though the person carrying the C3 Master is still taking a major hit.

As it stands, many of the Leadership edges don't work (or come up to infrequently) on Mech Scale. We've gotten great use out of Tactician though. Perhaps we need some specific Leadership edges for SBT that would grant enough advantages to make C3 worth taking.
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kronovan
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

peregry wrote:
As it stands, many of the Leadership edges don't work (or come up to infrequently) on Mech Scale. We've gotten great use out of Tactician though. Perhaps we need some specific Leadership edges for SBT that would grant enough advantages to make C3 worth taking.


Somewhat my thought as well, hence wanting to sweetin the pot a bit for something like C3 networks. It's not just SBT Mech Scale - there aren't that many leadership edges that come into play often with heavy armor combat in Weird Wars II or Tour of Darkness either. There is some nice Leadership edges in both of those settings though that could probably benefit SBT MS. When I get a chance I'll go through those books and post anything that might be applicable.
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Darq666
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok so I have been trying to pin down what it is I really want to accomplish. I think it is two fold, I want to explore whether SW is flexible enough (as is - and I believe it is) to be used for Battletech RPG (mmore as an intellectual exercise) and I want to come up with rules to use for a group I have who has never done anything with Battletech - and I believe would be overwhelmed by the additional aspect of completly seperate Mech to Mech combat.

The Battletech world is big and interesting, even (dare I say it) without any Battlemechs! The Mechs are the frosting on the cake of a world filled with exploration of forgotten worlds, feudal kingdoms vying for resources and political intrigue.
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kronovan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darq666 wrote:
Ok so I have been trying to pin down what it is I really want to accomplish. I think it is two fold, I want to explore whether SW is flexible enough (as is - and I believe it is) to be used for Battletech RPG (mmore as an intellectual exercise) and I want to come up with rules to use for a group I have who has never done anything with Battletech - and I believe would be overwhelmed by the additional aspect of completly seperate Mech to Mech combat.


My advice is for you to determine what your bottom line is in terms of going from SBT with its many gritty elements of BattleTech to something much simpler and closer to core SWD. For instance, are you willing to forgo all of the external / internal armor and damage modelling in SBT/BT and have much simpler damage such as SWD's character-based damage? Or do you want to take an approach more along the lines of the Front/Side/Rear modeling in SWD for armored vehicles? How realistic do you want movement to be in comparison to SBT with its 'Mech Scale pace and multiple terrain modifiers? Do you want something that treats 'Mech movement more like SWD armored vehicles or something more in line with SWD character pace?

How realistic do you want the components/tech that comprise a 'Mech? Do you want something close to the hard-SciFi in BT, something much simpler like Construct characters in SWD, or something in between? How much detail do you want for the Man-Machine Interface in 'Mechs? Something like SBT requiring a number of specific skills, or something that treats them more like standard SWD vehicles requiring only existing, core skills?

Keeping in mind, that no matter how much you want to have a BattleTech setting conversion that predominantly focuses on characters and standard characater scale adventurees, with BT you're never going to be able to completely get away form 'Mechs, hence you need to know how they fit in amongst characters. Which is why I think when you start to answer questions like those above and arrive at a bottom line, you'll have a better idea of how to translate it into the details for your conversion.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll throw this out here.

If you want to play a Savage Worlds game that is primarily focused on the court intrigue of the Lyran Commonwealth between nobles and the hidden ongoing conflict between Loki and Heimdal, you can pretty much play that without any special rules at all. The rule book is primarily focused on what things that show up in BattleTech but are not covered by the SW rules.

This means there's primarily three things:

1. BattleMechs and how they fight.
2. Specific gear.
3. Interstellar/orbital travel.

Of these, the most important (and largest) is obviously the Mechs, hence the focus in the rules on them. The next biggest is specific gear, a section which has been systematically expanding over each revision (and we're planning a major overhaul and expansion of it for the next revision of the rules as well as greatly increased character creation options). Finally, space travel in BattleTech, for the most part, can be abstracted/narrated away for the most part. Eventually we may expand on how some of that works (including creating a specific skill for calculating jumps or something, who knows), but its been a low priority as it is one of the smallest parts of the game while being one of the most complex (since BattleTech is actually pretty close to hard science when it comes to space-travel, except for its Fusion Engines and FTL).

If you're concerned about players being scared by the Mech rules (which is fair, they are complex), introduce them to the setting with a non-mech centric game. Have the Mechs there (as they are an iconic part of the setting) but introduce that level of rules to the players gradually.

I should note, by the way, that in SBT Mechs actually move much closer to SW characters than they do to their incarnations in BattleTech. The only real difference is how far they can move in a given turn (Pace/Walk varies widely between Mechs), and how the Run action works (150% of Walk vs add 1d6). So movement is pretty much the same with the only new thing being that facing matters (which it does in SW vehicular combat... so...). Jump Jets are nothing new if you looked at the futuristic power armor section of SWD (though again is set value vs roll dice).

The real significant difference is in determining the die roll for an attack. This is definitely more complex than core SW, as there is more variables that go into it. Figuring the results of an attack are just... different. Damage is much less complex (as the numbers are static and go against, what amounts to HP), but crits and hit locations are new, though no more complex than Wounds and Soaking, to me at least.

Anyway, I've gotten on a tangent. Savage Worlds is flexible enough to run a BattleTech RPG. The big sticking point is how to handle Mechs. We presented one system here, another person has their own take on it that is more oriented towards the crunch of BattleTech. Your own vision is welcome and I look forward to it.
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kronovan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found another paragaraph that may need some clarification - Tracking Fire on pg. 21. One of the sentences currently states:
"When firing at an enemy, you may spend a chip to move a hit from a limb inwards to the appropriate torso section."
If chip refers to bennie, then it would be clearer if it read "you may spend a bennie"

As I posted earlier, I went through the Weird War setting books to see if anything could possibly be adapted to SBT. I've changed the text to better fit SBT, but there's a few where I omitted it because I couldn't think of anything that was an appropriate equivalent. So here's the few that looked like they might work.

Combat Edges

Groundhog
Prerequisites: Seasoned, Spirit d8, Smarts d6, Light class or smaller 'Mech
When under fire this 'Mech pilot seems to have a knack at finding terrain that blends in with their 'Mech. When their 'Mech is prone this Pilot receives a -2 protection instead of the standard -1. This edge is negated if the attacker is adjacent.

This edge also gives a bonus in ToD against suppressive fire, but I'm not even sure if suppressive fire would work in SBT for mech scale - maybe SMGs? It could also be used for the Out of Cockpit scale for a pilot, soldier, scout, etc, in which case the bonus would be -4 protection and the character would only take a hit from suppressive fire when they roll snake eyes. The edge is negated on OoC scale when an attacker is within 3".

Fire for Effect
Prerequisites: Novice, Smarts d8+
The Soldier, 'Mech Pilot or Commander has a knack at zeroing in artillery. When calling for artillery they reduce all deviation rolls. This means that for an artillery call that misses, the deviation is reduced to d8-2, and successful hits only deviate d4-2.

It different in WW's due to artillery deviation working differently - its actually much more drastic. I gave a bigger reduction to the miss because d8-1 didn't seem beneficial enough, whereas d4-3 seemed a bit too much of a bonus.

Leadership Edges

Command Voice
Prerequisites: Novice, Command, Rank
A commander with this Edge increases their command radius from 10 to 15.

It's of course an increase from 5 to 10 in WW, but the base has already been increased to 10 in SBT by Command. Wink

Leader of Men
Prerequisites: Veteran
Soliers or 'Mech Pilots making group rolls while under this Leader's command roll a d10 as Wild dice instead of d6.

Professional Edges

Medic!
Prerequisites: Novice, Healing d6+
A character with this Edge can get wounded combat personel fighting again in seconds. If the medic can get to a wounded non-Wild Card character by the end of the round in which they were wounded, he can make an immediate Healing roll a -2. If the roll is successful, the victim is merely shaken instead of wounded.

This obviously wouldn't work for mech scale, so it's likely not something a Mech Pilot would take. However, if an OoC scale party is accompanied with allied extras, this is a very important edge - really the only chance to keep an extra in the game. I haven't GM'd a WW campaign where at least 1 player didn't take it.


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peregry
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronovan wrote:

Groundhog
Prerequisites: Seasoned, Spirit d8, Smarts d6, Light class or smaller 'Mech
When under fire this 'Mech pilot seems to have a knack at finding terrain that blends in with their 'Mech. When their 'Mech is prone this Pilot receives a -2 protection instead of the standard -1. This edge is negated if the attacker is adjacent.


Looking at the description, it may fit better for Quad Mechs than Light Mechs, as Quad already have special bonuses for going Hull Down. Keep in mind also that there are vehicles in SBT, and tanks and such could benefit from this too. Wink

Quote:
Fire for Effect
Prerequisites: Novice, Smarts d8+
The Soldier, 'Mech Pilot or Commander has a knack at zeroing in artillery. When calling for artillery they reduce all deviation rolls by -1. This means that for an artillery call that misses, the deviation is reduced to d8-2, and successful hits only deviate d4-2.

... Why did we not have a Edge that modifies artillery? This one might just be going in.

Quote:
Command Voice
Prerequisites: Novice, Command, Rank
A commander with this Edge increases their command radius from 10 to 15.

I think the original Edge was put into core SWDE as "Command Presence" which already has been adapted.

Professional Edges

Quote:
Medic!
Prerequisites: Novice, Healing d6+
A character with this Edge can get wounded combat personel fighting again in seconds. If the medic can get to a wounded non-Wild Card character by the end of the round in which they were wounded, he can make an immediate Healing roll a -2. If the roll is successful, the victim is merely shaken instead of wounded.

I can see the use of this one. I've been planning on expanding the equipment section with some of BattleTech's medical gear, so this would be a good tie in for people who are interested in that.
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kronovan
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As per usual, while you're quoting and replying, I'm still editing my post. Just cause I'm that kind of guy where its never written quite correctly. Wink I changed the Fire for Effect wording a bit.

peregry wrote:

Quote:
Command Voice
Prerequisites: Novice, Command, Rank
A commander with this Edge increases their command radius from 10 to 15.

I think the original Edge was put into core SWDE as "Command Presence" which already has been adapted.

Yep, I believe the prereq in SBT for Command Voice should be "Command Presence." It's supposed to be an additional increase of the radius.

Anyhow, I'll make a 2nd read through, just in case there's something else. I really wanted to adapt ToD's F'ng New Guy hindrance, but just didn't know how to make it appropriate. Upon more reflection, it probably could work for a new, young pilot in a Lance, but for sure it'd be appropriate for out-of-Mech military personel.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any thoughts by the Discord Company on Healing and what impact tech in the 31st century has on natural healing? The core rule in SWD is based on Tech level (TL) 0 (present day Earth) and grants a +2 to natural healing made with Medical attention. From all my readings of the BT cannon the Inner Sphere would be a TL 2 setting, so I'm wondering if the bonus should be increased; +4, maybe even a +6?
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronovan wrote:
I'm wondering if the bonus should be increased; +4, maybe even a +6?

First, that big a bonus means everyone always gets better. Always. Which is neither dramatically appropriate, nor fitting with the setting.

Second, SWD says that the +2 is for medical technology on par with the current tech or better.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
kronovan wrote:
I'm wondering if the bonus should be increased; +4, maybe even a +6?

First, that big a bonus means everyone always gets better. Always. Which is neither dramatically appropriate, nor fitting with the setting.[

What I'm alluding to, which I admittedly didn't word well, is natural healing that occurs in an advanced medical center/facility. I also wouldn't neccessarily agree that going beyond the +2 bonus is not dramatically appropriate, if you keep in mind that a WC with 3 wounds and rough traveling in the field under poor environmental conditions could make a Vigor roll with as much as a -9 penalty!

Quote:
Second, SWD says that the +2 is for medical technology on par with the current tech or better.

Sure, I can see where someone could interpret the "Medical Attention (2010 and beyond)" statement that way and keep it relative to the era. However, that's not to say other settings and rules haven't done otherwise. The SPC allows you to add +2 to that bonus if the party has a HQ with a medical center. My thinking was that a medical facility in a TL 2 setting might give just such a bonus. I admittedly don't know the details of medical tech in the BT canon well, hence my post.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The major areas BattleTech does better is prosthetics and immediate trama.

Rules for both will be coming out in the next revision.

That said, in canon treatment for things like cancer and such are not much more advanced, as even the most advanced medicine of the Inner Sphere could only extend the life of a boy with lukemia (Joshua Marik).

I would grant different bonuses depending on the type damage and culture. The Clans area little better at treating tramautic injuries than the Sphere, who are slightly better than modern times.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronovan wrote:
What I'm alluding to, which I admittedly didn't word well, is natural healing that occurs in an advanced medical center/facility.

So I assumed. Wink
Quote:
I also wouldn't neccessarily agree that going beyond the +2 bonus is not dramatically appropriate, if you keep in mind that a WC with 3 wounds and rough traveling in the field under poor environmental conditions could make a Vigor roll with as much as a -9 penalty!

By "not dramatically appropriate" I mean that it is inconsistent with a) the expectations of players (sometimes patients take a turn for the worse; some injuries simply take months to heal, not a couple weeks of bed rest), b) the flavor text of BT (not everyone gets better if they live long enough to make it to medical care; sometimes patients die of post-op complications), c) the needs of a story, where a character needs to die of lingering wounds.
The penalty with medical attention can't be worse than -9 (including both levels of fatigue), even in the cave man days; in this proposal, medical care means that the patient is at a -5 or -3, despite being dragged across frozen mountains while starving to death and recovering from life-threatening wounds; and if someone has the Healer edge then the total goes up by +2. Laughing

Oh, and citing the SPC for a setting where characters cannot fly naked into a sun and come out the other side alive, is ... questionable, at best, and generally inappropriate. Razz
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