Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[peregry]

Oh, and and in all my number crunching I forgot to address your suggested hindrances:

[kronovan]

I'd be posting here more, but in an attempt to get a better handle on the BT rules I've been playing games this weekend using them. I just finished my 3rd game today in our mini campaign. Tomorrow I'm at the local miniatures convention where my son and I will be playing in a session with custom-made terrain; can't wait for that experience. So far I'm loving it, but I can see where it will eventually wear thin and SBt will be much appericated.

[peregry]

[Ketjak]

> Defeated... I like...

Yay! Happy to add to the mix.

> Dispossessed... can it be gained in play?

Oh, this should be really noteworthy - like "I left my 'Mech unlocked with the keys still inside" or "my Atlas was whacked by one of Peregry's super-Locusts" sort of noteworthy.

If that happens in-play, I'd say it could work temporarily until the PC gets a new 'Mech.

> Freeborn severity is Clan-dependent

No doubt. Maybe it should be:

Freeborn
Requirement: Clan origin in Clan environments only
Your character is subordinate to all Trueborn warriors of his Clan. He also suffers -2 Charisma in Clans where this is a major Hindrance, -1 Charisma in clans where this is a minor Hindrance. For some Clans, being freeborn is not a Hindrance at all.

> Numbahs

Your static system vs. movement example is a little off, since you don't indicate what movement system you're using. You're not using either the BT standard or Discord Company's since you have an increment at 9.

Using a d8 as standard, the static system really varies only about the movement of the target (terrain and movement of the shooter and weapon modifiers assumed to be applicable to all movements, they can be negated... mostly). In both cases assume that movement works as in your conversion (which makes maneuverability more important). That d8 results in:

[peregry]

To be honest, I think you're over-analyzing it.

As it stands, SBt's to-hit system is exactly like a core Savage Worlds system: Fighting and Parry. There's a few more modifiers added in, but at it's core it's the same. Further, keep in mind that with the weapon grouping rules a lot more damage is riding on the single die rolls, so hits are overall nastier, but all Mechs need to be hit a bit less (hence why the defense buffs to Heavies and Assaults, otherwise they get hit even more often).

As to my table, sorry, I basically didn't look closely at the table from Total Warfare, corrected below:

Under a static system, accounting for movement:
4 - 70% (Moved <3)
5 - 60% (Moved 3-4)
6 - 50% (Moved 5-6)
7 - 40% (Moved 7-9)
8 - 30% (Moved 10-17)
9 - 20% (Moved 18-24)
10 - 10% (Moved 25+)

Though, corrected, this shows that the current SBt movement bonus favors lighter, fast machines even more than I initially said.

As to the overhead that comes with variable Ranged Defenses, maybe our group is just used to the idea due to DnD (AC varies between targets on the field) so it does not slow down gameplay for us. The PCs each keep track of their Ranged Defense, and the GM keeps track of the enemies. Folks calculate their attack rolls, roll the attack and resolve. The biggest slowdown in combat is rolling hit locations and applying damage, to be honest, not resolving the attacks.

If you read some earlier posts, part of the point of having both Gunnery and Mech Piloting was to make MechWarriors a distinctive type of character like other character builds. We further wanted Mech Defenses to be reflective of the character's skill as a pilot, rather than just a base TN. This is similar to how BattleTech handles it (the base of the TN is reflective of the pilot), though inverted.

We felt that in core Battletech the machine mattered more than the pilot of the machine. This made sense as it was a tactical game, not an RPG. We set out specifically to ensure that the pilot matter at least as much as the machine, if not more so. Basing Ranged Defense on the pilot's skill, like Parry is based on the Fighting skill in core SW, we felt helped shift the balance away from the machine and to the MechWarrior.

We also wanted to make sure raises mattered in combat. The problem with a flat increase in damage is that it does not scale in the least (a huge increase for a Small Laser, but a negligible one for a Gauss Rifle), it makes weapon groups more complicated (do all the weapons get the bonus damage or just the first weapon?), and how do you handle missiles? We discussed it, and dismissed it as being overly clunky and an rewarding enough. Further, we were looking at ways to increase the speed of gameplay, and bonus damage does little to make mechs die faster in reality.

So we looked at how things were set up and determined that Mechs effectively have two types of damage they can take: Hit point (Armor + Internal Structure) and Criticals. Criticals before the armor is breached does have precedent in Battletech (the 2 result on the Hit Location Table) and the "Golden BB" is a know Battletech occurrence. Using that as are cue, we decided to make Raises into Critical Hit chances, with further raises being an additional bonus on the confirm check to result great luck.

The numbers, honestly, followed after these core design decisions. You would not believe how many number tweaks we've taken to get to the point we're at. Poking at the numbers helps us refine them, but I doubt we're going to change the core mechanics of the system we've built over two years of work.

I also should bring up another core design decision we've made: No Edge should be required to be effective in a given type of Mech or weapons. An edge that increases the Defense of a Light Mech is exactly that type of Edge, especially in a system that uses a static TN rather than a scaling one. We want Edges to be things that make the character more effective at what they do, not required to bring them up to par with other characters.

Heavies and Assaults honestly have not been benefited by the system as far as I can tell, outside of the benefits they already have (more guns more armor). If a group of enemies shoots me in my Heavy Mechs (a Fire Scorpion in one game and a Guillotine in another), I'm likely going to soak a few hits. Meanwhile, it's a big deal when the enemies hit the Light and Medium pilots, it only happens occasionally and it usually is a very lucky hit or due to the pilot doing something... overconfident and stupid.

-----------------------------

On the Hindrances:

Still not sold on Dispossessed, I'll mull it over. While I doubt it will be made a core one, once we figure out a system for starting Mechs it will likely be included there in some way.

Freeborn looks really good now. I can't say I'll use it word for word, but that covers my major concerns.
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- Peregry
It is always giant stompy robot time!

[warrenss2]

THIS is a little dated (1999), but this might be helpful for SBt gamers.

I'm also looking for charts that show Mechwarrior ranks and a good TOE (Table of Organization & Equipment) at a Lance, Platoon, Company, Battalion, etc... levels.

Just found THIS showing ranks. You guys know of any better? Or a good TOE site?

Peregry, no offense but, I'm just going to have to actually play the game to get a better grasp on how the Ranged Defense works and to see if I like it better than the traditional SW TN system. I now understand why you did it that way and that you guys have playtested it quite a bit. I will give it a honest try and see how it goes.

We've played Mechwarrior (the 1st edition... am I dating myself here?) and only the box sets of Battletech & Citytech. We never got into the other supplements that came out.

Maybe you can answer this question (anyone else.. please feel free to pipe in too). I was told that there's a Tech Readout book of fan based/created Mechs. Do you know which one that is? Or, for that matter, which ones are the better of those books?

I know the Intro Game has some Mech miniatures is it and I have some plastic ones from long ago (and my Hatchetman in metal) that can be used for the game, but what about cheap alternatives? I'm thinking Mechwarrior Clix.

Btw - true scale of the miniatures is not all that important to us... just as long as it shows what's in the map hex. Plus, we don't care too much about being absolutely "cannon BattleTech". We are going to design our own Mechs. After all that was half the fun of the game to us.
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[Ketjak]

warrenss2,

Sarna.net is a good reference (and has been for quite some time). I was going to point you there.

As for organization - the lance is still the basic unit for Inner Sphere circa 3025, which is where I prefer to play (and with only the weapons in those original boxes plus inferno rounds). I'll step up to Clan and use only those weapons plus Star League and Clan tech - for me, the rest is MartianTech.

For a basic structure that leads to, 4 'Mechs, then three lances for a company, three companies for a battalion, and thee BTNs for a regiment. That's a refresher, I am sure.

I scoured the Interwebs for the same material, since all my old books are in storage. The result was WorkTroll's Army Books, which, while not exhaustive, will help with setting up a campaign:

http://www.ourbattletech.com/downloads/ (scroll down... I just discovered the AU's searching this out for you, as my original source was a different forum I can't find any more)

I found these tables by Xotl to be potentially useful, as I had constriucted similar ones in 1993, I believe, but those are long gone/in storage:

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,1219.0.html?PHPSESSID=06nhgsam0d9v5fp572nkbn7j23

Also, I am a nerd drawn to BT tables.

You're going to need 'Mech record sheets. Rather than buy all the sheet books, download this and the SSW Master pack listed in the downloads section: http://www.solarisskunkwerks.com/about

SSW has filters for year, tech base, and so on, so I can filter out the garbage.

Peregry,

There is a core system in Savage Worlds for ranged combat mechanics - I suspect the Discord system has been developed intuitively without analysis of the math. That's just purely based on the observation of the system as you've presented it - Discord Company have changed two pieces to compensate for a perceived weakness, and one of the solutions Discord recommends is actually worse for the majority of those suffering from that weakness.

While it works for you and your group, this may not work for other groups - in particular mine. We've been playing D&D of all stripes (counting True20) for about 30 years, so we're not averse to different bases and we're "used to it" too, we're in a Savage Worlds forum for the elegance the system brings to the table. Why mess with what's not broken?

Your point about the MechWarrior mattering more than the machine is well taken. That's why I think the solution is to add Edges that really boost the flavor of the MechWarrior, rather than watch all Piloting Skills peg to d10's and d12's. If you look at Light 'Mech Specialist as a must-have, at least it only consumes one advance or Edge at character creation, rather than five to seven or so out of 15 Skill points or a couple of advances. Frankly, if players using the published rules do not have characters with d10s and d12s in BattleMech Piloting, I would be surprised.

I don't look at LMS as a must-have - since it locks that player into a class of 'Mech, it pretty much means they aren't looking to get out of that Locust (Cicada, Jenner, Stinger, Dasher, what-have-you) and upgrade at the first opportunity. Suddenly the player's role-playing preference is supported by rules, which to me is an elegant solution and definitely promotes individuality.

One aspect to these we haven't mentioned is the effect on the psychology of the shooter. Most shooters will want their shots to count, in particular with AC-20s, LRM-20s, and Gauss Rifles. If one uses Ranged Defense, all the BattleMechs have the same odds to be hit unless their MechWarrior players were silly and didn't buy d10 or d12. Using LMS, the easiest shots will be those players without LMS - though shooting at a light has more of an impact on the target, you're more likely to score hits on the heavies... thus, they draw fire away from the lights, further increasing their survivability beyond just the bonuses from speed, terrain, and forcing movement! This is much better for Light 'Mech pilots.

I think this is the way to go. Damn, you've gone and made me thik about BattleTech again, Peregry - I really appreciate this discussion and your work. My players will be grateful.

- Ket

[peregry]

I will also voice my support of sarna as a good resource, but I may be biased since I'm a contributor over there (username is peregry, shock). SSW is also perfect, we've been using that since we started designing SBt. I might just add links to them in the document itself.

--------------------------------
From my experience with SW any Edge that boosts defenses or gives a static bonus to attack is near essential. I can understand your point about Edges that add flavor to specific styles, but when its as powerful as an effective +2 on defense that is well beyond the realm of flavorful and into the realm of must have. I would be more inclined to add an Edge that boosts the Speed bonus if you move at least X hexes (where X is arbitrarily large enough so that mostly lights and mediums would get it, though MASC equipped heavies might too).

Locking into a class of Mech is nothing, most of our players are willing to lock themselves to one Mech period with the Trademark Ride edge. TM Ride is almost to essential for our taste, but is kept exactly because its strict limit. Improved TM Ride isn't even as powerful as you're proposing, but is more limited.

As to why not use the ranged system as presented? The ranged system as presented places no emphasis on the skills of the characters involved outside of two Edges and one skill die. We felt that undervalued the character to much. Further the scale is completely different. Mech hexes are 30 meters wide, compared to personal scale combat, Mech scale is a completely different beast. We wanted to ensure people saw Mech combat as something distinctive from SW scale. Hence the specific skills (Mech Piloting and Gunnery), hence the ranged combat working differently, thus the different but parallel edges.

I can see where the appeal of keeping to core SW is, this is why we based the core mechanics off of Fighting/Parry. This also helped bring the focus more onto the characters to us.

As a final note on this matter, if you do decide to go with a static TN system, be sure to not use the Wildcard's Edge rules, and be careful about Pulse Lasers, as they are already exceptionally powerful. (You'll note we already reduced their bonus from BT to compensate for die size differences.) I would also adjust the range modifiers to 0/-1/-2. It's easy to stack static modifiers to attacks in SBt due to Edges and equipment.

I still request that you at least try the system as presented before making any changes. When you do make adjustment, please post them here, and I may include them in an optional rules section of the document (this section will likely make its first appearance in the next release).
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- Peregry
It is always giant stompy robot time!

[kronovan]

[warrenss2]

[peregry]

[warrenss2]

In a nutshell... What are the changes/improvements from Fasa to the WizKids stuff?
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[peregry]

. . .

Changes? Battletech... changing...

Rules wise, Battletech is nearly completely unchanged since its inception. New tech is added with specific rules for it, but those are handled in the rules, not by mechanics.

Now, if you mean differences between BattleTech and MechWarrior: Dark Age, those are completely different gaming systems and completely incompatible. We're not even talking the difference between 2nd and 3rd edition DnD level differences, we're talking SW and DnD level differences. Ignore Dark Age as far as rules and the like go, its basically a dead system. The only nice thing out of it are some of the miniatures, but even some of those are open to interpretation.

WizKids is not even doing development anymore, that is now done by Catalyst,. Core mechanics between FASA and Catalyst are identical. New tech has been added, but nothing world changing. You could play Savage Battletech with books published in the 1980s just as easily as the modern bools.
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- Peregry
It is always giant stompy robot time!

[warrenss2]

Urban terrain for your SBt games.
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[kronovan]

Those are some nice 3D urban objects. I'm wondering how well they'd work with BT maps? My group is equally comfortable playing on 2D maps as they are with 3D terrain, so we've been using the 8 maps that are in the BT Intro set and 2 hexpacks. The 3D terrain I played on the past weekend certainly worked well for gameplay, but it was arranged on a gerneric felt hex mat.

BTW I can't recommend the hexpacks enough. I bought them for $20 a piece and the inlcuded map board in both is very good and the tiles are excellent; ovreall a lot of bang for the $.

[warrenss2]

I'm going to get the Intro Box, with the miniatures, once I find employment.
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[VaMinion]

[kronovan]

I'm not sure if I posted this earlier, but for anyone looking for record sheets, a PDF of all of the sheets for the 24 mechs in the Intro Box Set are free to download here. That PDF includes 2 variants of the Loki and Thor, just in case you don't want to custom equip them. There's also a blank sheet for custom mechs. Unfortunately, I dismantled my record sheet book from my Intro Box set and started scan-printing them before I discovered the PDF.

BTW I mentioned the Sword & Dragon starter book and map hexpacks earlier. Something I didn't mention though is that both hexpacks contain a extra mission for S&D in their supplementary rules booklet - very useful and a nice pleasant surprise.

[warrenss2]

[peregry]

We had a Hatchman player in our first SBt game, he volunteered to playtest all the melee rules (which was a great help, as originally the melee Edges were much more expensive).

It was terrifying, especially once he got TSM. Melee in SBt is quite viable as written, though it has a heavier Edge requirement than ranged fighting.
_________________
- Peregry
It is always giant stompy robot time!