 |
Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
Discussion Forum for PEG/GWG
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Pariah74
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 934
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:34 pm Post subject: [Hellfrost] Building an effective Archer. |
 |
|
I have a Seasoned character in Hellfrost that is an archer in a party of 2 casters. Currently she's experiencing severe envy at the Bolt power.
My 2d6 Long Bow feels pretty ineffective when compared to the 3, 2d10 bolts they can toss around every turn. And lets please skip the stuff about backlash and whatnot because it doesn't happen. We have been playing for 35 XP worth and they have yet to suffer ANY drawbacks from their magic. Hell, in all my time playing Savage Worlds, I have only seen Backlash actually happen (not being saved by a benny) a handful of times. d12 + benny makes it pretty rare. I'm sure it will come up...eventually, but so far I don't think it's gonna be near enough to put them on par with me.
Currently I am sitting on d10 Shooting, Assassin, Double Shot, and Marksman. I planned on taking Trademark Weapon next but I would like to see what others think. She also frequently uses Flesh Ripper Arrows and the like...but that gets pricey.
Is it just silly to play a bow using character in this setting with two casters with bolt in my party? I feel like I am wielding a pea shooter right now.
I WISH my bow could fire 3 shots at 2d10 for a -2 penalty or whatever. I'd gladly accept backlash for that. 
I have loved everything Wiggy has done so far, and I love the setting, so I will trust there is a way to make her effective in this party and I just can't see it.
_________________
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Wiggy
Legendary
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: TAG me. I dare you!
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Might Shot might be better than Trademark Weapon, depending what your character's Strength is. Play it right an you could be doing d12+2+d6 with a longbow (long-term investment).
I've also sent you a PM containing an Edge that hasn't been released yet -- Armor Piercing Shot.
_________________
Wiggy
Creative Director Triple Ace Games
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pariah74
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 934
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks.
Right now she has d6 Strength, but I was planning on raising it, since she carries a spear too.
_________________
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kaltorak
Veteran
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 545
Location: Turin, Italy
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
If I can add my two cents, don't forget Extraction and Fleet Footed. They will improve a lot your archer's life expectancy  . |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Enno
Veteran
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 518
Location: Ulm, Germany
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
And get in with your spellcaster. Magic is great asset, even more when it runs most of the day. Work out some spell combos with him/her.
_________________
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wiggy
Legendary
Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 5597
Location: TAG me. I dare you!
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
And don't forget your spellcasters are rolling three dice if they unleash three bolts. Every one of those has a chance of rolling a 1 (8% chance per die every casting for a d12), and the -2 penalty lessens their odds of casting and hitting. Range, cover, darkness, and MAPs all play their part, though as an archer you aren't immune to them. At least you can buy Marksman to help offset them.
_________________
Wiggy
Creative Director Triple Ace Games
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16166
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Wiggy wrote: | | And don't forget your spellcasters are rolling three dice if they unleash three bolts. Every one of those has a chance of rolling a 1 (8% chance per die every casting for a d12)... |
Which means a 23% chance every turn if that is indeed their tactic, and if there are 2 casters doing this, then that's a 40% chance every turn that at least one of them rolls a 1 on one of their dice.
And even if they avoid the natural 1 on one die, they may be sacrificing even better results on other dice to get it. I can't count the number of times a spellcaster had to choose between better results with backlash versus worse results but without it.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager
www.peginc.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Enno
Veteran
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 518
Location: Ulm, Germany
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you already worry about bolt, then blast and later prolonged blast will give you the willies 
_________________
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pariah74
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 934
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Clint wrote: | | Wiggy wrote: | | And don't forget your spellcasters are rolling three dice if they unleash three bolts. Every one of those has a chance of rolling a 1 (8% chance per die every casting for a d12)... |
Which means a 23% chance every turn if that is indeed their tactic, and if there are 2 casters doing this, then that's a 40% chance every turn that at least one of them rolls a 1 on one of their dice.
And even if they avoid the natural 1 on one die, they may be sacrificing even better results on other dice to get it. I can't count the number of times a spellcaster had to choose between better results with backlash versus worse results but without it. |
And then in reality what happens is they spend a benny and don't worry about it.
As I said, if I could turn my bow into a weapon that did 2d10 at a RoF of 3 with no autofire penalty, and all I had to worry about was not rolling a 1 on my shooting die...SOLD!
I keep hearing about how Backlash is the great balancer when there's no power points, but so far I have not seen that. As I said we are right around 35-40 xp and not once have they had a problem.
And sacrificing BETTER results?!  Excuse me while me and my 2d6 pea shooter go throw up, while the caster cries over not getting an extra d6 on his 3x 2d10 attack. 
Can we talk about other things, since I specifically said don't give me this stuff in the OP? It might be true on the page, but in practice these spell casters are not getting hit with 1's.
Can we talk about how to make my character more effective? Theory is great, and that may be what SHOULD happen, but what is happening is if I lose initiative I sit around with an arrow notched while the bad guys drop, and if I win initiative I kill one bad guy, and then watch them kill 6.
And to be clear, I have only noticed this in Hellfrost. Normally magic seems fine compared to ranged weapons. It just seems like in Hellfrost nobody in their right mind would pick up a bow, rather than a spellbook.
_________________
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
R˙che
Seasoned
Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 195
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wish I could help you Pariah, but we had similar issues in our HF game. The spellcasters with electric y Trapping from the main book were slaughtering everything that carried a metal weapon or armor without breaking a sweat. He did winge occasionally when he had to re-roll due to backlash, but that was far less often than everyone else soaking.
About the only options that I can think of is taking mighty shot and then opening up doubleshot (assuming you are not an elf). Followed with level headed. Gets you going with being able to at least launch 2 shots around that can be deadly.
Probably to late now, but if you were a follower of Ullr, the signature power Aim helps with boosted trait, just maintain both hide and then ambush the heck of folks. Called shots to the head with the drop are bad.
In a straight up in the open fight, I doubt you will ever had the power that a wizard has in HF. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sadric
Veteran
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 995
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Talk with your GM about your problems. Maybe you could go on a quest to search a magical bow in some frozen graveyard with the magic to make a ROF3 attack (Arrows split magically midair) or something like supressive fire..... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Energy
Novice
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Posts: 30
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Pariah74 wrote: | | Can we talk about how to make my character more effective? Theory is great, and that may be what SHOULD happen, but what is happening is if I lose initiative I sit around with an arrow notched while the bad guys drop, and if I win initiative I kill one bad guy, and then watch them kill 6. |
The chance of them rolling 3 2d10 bolts that hit is I think about 1 in 4. Are you leaving something out (like they're all hrimwisards and it's 30 below outside)? Because you are either grossly overestimating how often they do that or they are straight up cheating. Neither of those are fixable by picking an edge.
If you're unhappy with your character getting overshadowed by people who use magic, make a character who can use magic too. Follow Tiw and buff with Aim, Smite and Quickness (This is a seriously fun build to play BTW). Getting in a huff about wizards in a fantasy game is a bit like complaining that the Indy 500 is a bitch to run on foot. If you want your game mechanics to be competitive, you have to use what's out there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Enno
Veteran
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 518
Location: Ulm, Germany
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ok, then here are my tips:
Specialize on speed and reaction time
Edges: Quick Draw, Quick, Fleet-Footed, Level Headed
Improve your odds before and in a fight
Edges: Combat reflexes, Dodge, Acrobat, Danger Sense, Steady Hands
Raise the damage you cause
Edges: No Mercy, Dead Shot, Might Shot, Giant Killer, Armor Piercing Shot
Raise your Shooting, Strength and Agility to about d8 or d10. Higher on Veteran to take the Expert and Master edges (for Shooting). Taking Trademark Weapon at that stage is also advised.
Magic is a major part of Hellfrosts "infrastructure", so we can't take it out of the picture. Get in with your spellcaster(s) to boost you with Aim, Boost Shooting, Smite, Farsight etc, while on a trip. Spellcasters have to learn, that supporting their team is a MAJOR part of their job. Spellcasters that help themselves only are killed very fast, especially if you go against Ogres, Giants and Dragons (one of your specialties if you take Giant Killer). Teamwork is a prerequisite for survival on Rassilon!
If your spellcasters won't or can't support you, have always a few alchemical devices ready, like a Boost potion, a Smite powder, or Farsight oil. It may be expensive, but 3 or 4 of these in reserve come always handy - not only for you, but for your team too!
When your hero is pious, but not enough for a paladin or priest, he can become a Dedicatee. Especially if Ullr or Niht are his patron gods.
_________________
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.
Last edited by Enno on Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Maine
Seasoned
Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 123
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Agree with others that they should be rolling 1s more often than you claim they are. So it could be pure luck on their part, or something else.
I really don't have any advice to make you more effective; while that may nice, it just feels to me like that isn't the "real" issue.
This is something the GM should be compensating for, as well.
If your companion wizards are that deadly, surely they've made a name for themselves in some form. Having a reputation for being a lethal spellcaster is not always a positive thing - it can also make them targets. There will be those who want to see them taken down, and will do it themselves or hire others. Enemies who target them specifically will probably prepare themselves against such magic as best as they can.
Even without a reputation, in a combat your opponents should be intelligent enough to realize that the casters are the most deadly thing, and act to compensate: target the casters to take them down, or even just run away. If I recall, the range on a bow is much greater than those powers they have...
Last edited by Maine on Fri Mar 02, 2012 4:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Clint
Site Admin
Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16166
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Pariah74 wrote: | | Can we talk about how to make my character more effective? |
Sure. First, since we're comparing the character to others with a d12 attack skill, the obvious choice is to increase the character's attack skill to d12 too. That's simple and should be the first thing done.
Assassin is a poor choice if your focus was supposed to be ranged since it's an Edge that splits benefits between both melee and range. You'd be better off taking Trademark Weapon for bow if the character is truly an archer. You might ask the GM if you could switch it out. And since you are nearly to Veteran Rank, Improved Trademark Weapon is a no-brainer.
Besides increasing skill and taking Trademark Weapon, ranged attackers are most effective when they control positioning, and that comes from high intiative and speed.
You need Quick and/or Level Headed and Fleet Footed, so you can act before others and get into better positions.
As an addendum, you should pick up Steady Hands, so your options are either...
1 - Don't move and use Marksman
2 - Run and attack at -1 with Steady Hands.
Tactically, if you aren't making a Called Shot with Marksman every time, your target better be immune to Called Shots. For an effective -2 penalty for the +2 from Marksman, -1 with Trademark Weapon, or 0 with Improved TW, the character would be doing at least 2d6+4 damage that possibly bypasses the target's armor (that's a higher average and minimum damage than 2d10 by the way). Add Double Shot on top of that and its two 2d6+4 damage rolls per hit.
If the archer has to move, then run and drop the Called Shot but always Double Shot of course.
If your GM allows it, ask if you can bring in the Accurate Attack Edge from Modern Martial Arts. That would allow you to ignore 2 points of Called Shot or cover penalties with Shooting, then always make at least a -2 Called Shot.
From the same place, consider picking up Heightened Senses. Even if the character has Low Light Vision, the Edge allows ignoring 2 points of any sight penalties (obscure, invisibility, etc.). The Improved version negates them completely.
That's probably enough to work with for a while.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager
www.peginc.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pariah74
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 934
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Sure. First, since we're comparing the character to others with a d12 attack skill, the obvious choice is to increase the character's attack skill to d12 too. That's simple and should be the first thing done. |
I was under the impression that mathematically a d12 was mainly good for preventing 1's, and that it didn't give you much of statistical increase in your odds to hit. Besides, she doesn't have much trouble hitting. It's damage where I am jealous. How much better are my odds to get a raise with a d12?
Assassin was chosen because of her backstory. I still try to role play somewhat. I probably won't ask to change it. Taking one edge for flavor rather than min/maxing can't be enough to make her less than other players, who did the same thing. If so, I question the balance of magic in the setting.
I already plan on trademark weapon for her next advance, and imp trademark weapon. Quick is a background edge so I can't take that. I would love to have level headed and d12 shooting, but we're already talking about being up into Veteran before things get going. I was hoping for some more immediate results.
As far as tactics, it sounds like what I am doing already.
In a recent battle, when goblins and an ogre were assaulting the fort we were in, I had her stealth her way up to the top of a building, lay low and wait for them to enter. She got a shot on the big man and made him spend a benny to soak it. She remained up there, picking off another single enemy each round.
Sounds great, but when you compare to what the casters did...Blast the bad guy with Bolts and drop him in one round, and then proceed to level 3 bad guys each for the remaining turns.
It still seems like I am playing on a different level than they are.
I mean I have a finite number of shots and they don't! And at this rate my carrying capacity will never increase.
_________________
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pariah74
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 934
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Clint wrote: | | ...doing at least 2d6+4 damage that possibly bypasses the target's armor (that's a higher average and minimum damage than 2d10 by the way). Add Double Shot on top of that and its two 2d6+4 damage rolls per hit. |
3 x (2d10/2) = 30 damage.
2 x 2d6+4 = 22 damage.
They do 3 shots at 3 separate targets of 10 each.
I do 2 shots to 1 target of 11 each. The second one is usually wasted on extras.
So, I think your numbers are good on paper, but in practice it doesn't really happen that way.
_________________
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Enno
Veteran
Joined: 29 May 2006
Posts: 518
Location: Ulm, Germany
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If they sling so many bolts so successfully, it seems that they don't maintain few or no spells at all. With a -3 or -4 due to maintaining spells, they ain't that successful.
I seems that your GM doesn't really do a good job, since he has to take care that every character gets his pivotal moments in a session.
How many enemy archers and spellcasters did you guys met already?
With few or no protection by magic your spellcasters are easily shaken, so that maintain spells fail in most cases.
_________________
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ogbendog
Heroic
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 1912
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In a traditional game, spell-casters like that would quickly run out of power points.
and in a traditional game, bolts to 2d6, not 2d10 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pariah74
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
Posts: 934
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
He's a very good GM and he's running the campaign from the book mainly. I wouldn't fault him, and I think it's unfair to do so. There have been magic users, and no, for the most part the party's casters are not maintaining powers. They have no real need to do so. They take a -2 and level most things with Bolt.
Some of this is perception bias. There was a whole encounter (with a flying dragon) where she should have been the star of the show, but instead failed her Guts check and was Shaken most of the time, without any bennies left.
I think between Clint's advice, and Wiggy's personal help I'll be fine (much thanks to both of them)...but if my archer dies, I am definitely running a caster. 
_________________
"Games give you a chance to excel, and if you're playing in good company you don't even mind if you lose because you had the enjoyment of the company during the course of the game. "
~Gygax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
