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SW questions: Balance and Armor

 
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Kertain
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Joined: 07 Aug 2011
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:03 am    Post subject: SW questions: Balance and Armor Reply with quote

Morning folks,
So I have another round of questions for the community:

1) Balance
So after several games I am still running into issues with balancing scenerios. The baddies my group are fighting just get mowed down with little to no resistence. I don't mind the player winning, but the victory needs to have some resistence/challenge.
Now I will admit my group is pretty tactical and are careful not to expose their flank, clear rooms..ect. They also made sure they have very good guns and the best armor I would allow.

Other then just tripling the amount of mooks, any ideas? What do you folks to to keep the encounters challenging. I am concerned with just simply throwing more mooks at them because 1) they might get overwhelmed far too easily and 2) it looks like I am cheating Razz

2) Armor

a)
So of course my players get the best armor my tech level will support: Kevlar with inserts. This is +8 to their toughness for all gun fights. I am finding it hard to roll damage high enough to penetrate thier armor. Also I am forced into putting some good armor on my bad guys just to keep them alive a few rounds.
Suggestions?

b)
Does armor get damaged over time? Seems a Kevlar vest would be less useful after several solid hits particular those with inserts. How do I manage this without a terrible amount of book keeping?

c)
Unarmored fights with armor: I had one last game and with fists there was no way to bypass armor and cause damage. Am I doing something wrong?

Sorry for the long list....I have been stockpiling questions Smile


Last edited by Kertain on Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ValhallaGH
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good questions.

First, welcome (I don't think we've chatted before on these boards).

1) Change tactics. Grenades, called shots, and melee attacks all seriously hamper the effectiveness of kevlar. Cover negates many of the advantages of big guns.
1a) How did they all afford the $2500 kevlar vest with inserts? Are they all Filthy Rich and spent all of their money on the armor?
1b) Combat Ratings (Savage Worlds Deluxe) will give you some good guidelines on providing foes that are challenging without being overwhelming. Though a good rule of thumb is 3 per hero = challenging victory. (5 per hero should be a virtual TPK, but that depends upon your mooks and their relative power.)

2)
a) Remember that kevlar is only +4 armor against melee weapons. And that it only covers the chest. Shoot them in the arms, legs, or even head. A rifle with a 3RB setting, used by a guy with Marksman, can shoot heroes in the skull every round with a -0 attack (for +6 damage that bypasses the vest).
Alternately, area attacks. They have to use their lowest location armor value against area attacks (probably 0 for their arms, legs, or head). Explosives are deadly.
b) Mechancially, no. In real life, absolutely. Ceramic inserts are really only good for 1 to 3 ballistic impacts - after that they are too shattered to provide benefits. Even non-ballistic attacks can mess them up, though these are rarer (those things are tough).
FFF - at the end of every fight where the PC was hit in the vest, roll a d6. On a 6 the armor is damaged, -1 armor value.
c) You're forgetting about called shots. Though unarmed damage (strength) is not very dangerous unless something else is going on (Wild Attack, Berserk, Grapple, Martial Artist edge, etc.).

Best of luck.
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Lord Stone
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also keep in mind that kevlar vests with inserts are still rather obvious forms of armor. If you want a more dangerous gunfight at some point, trigger a gunfight event in a situation where the characters wouldn't be wearing vests. An ambush during an event where you definitely wouldn't be armored. That will force the characters to switch to tactics such as taking cover and everything. Be prepared for deadly situations if you do though.

I mean, think about it. When do you really wear armor? As a soldier in a war or on a mission, sure. Police in riot situations or during an operation, yes. If these people are on duty somewhere, sure. However, in everyday life, people walk around without bulletproof armor. Are the characters going to any kind of social call at all? Probably not wearing armor in those cases; it's obvious and ugly as hell. You wear armor in situations where you expect a fair chance of someone wanting or trying to shoot you, not so often otherwise.

To be fair, bulletproof armor in a mechanical sense is good at doing what it is supposed to do; protect you quite well from gunfire. Get shot and you get away with a bruise or maybe a shallow penetrated bullet if you're unlucky. That is a good thing; as a player you want to be able to buy bulletproof armor and expect a good degree of bulletproofness from it. If you are going to have armor break though, you might think about adjusting the prices since I am fairly sure the $2500 is pretty geared to not having to replace it.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: SW questions: Balance and Armor Reply with quote

Kertain wrote:
1) Balance
So after several games I am still running into issues with balancing scenerios. The baddies my group are fighting just get mowed down with little to no resistence. I don't mind the player winning, but the victory needs to have some resistence/challenge.
Now I will admit my group is pretty tactical and are careful not to expose their flank, clear rooms..ect. They also made sure they have very good guns and the best armor I would allow.


Well, my first question would be; if the players are tactical, are the NPCs?

Just some basic tactics beyond Gang Up can alter the effectiveness of a group of Extras as much or more than adding more Extras. Using Cover for protection, trying Tricks or Tests of Will if attacking isn't an option, maybe part of them going on Hold to wait for a player to reveal themself, and so on.

Also, beyond just mechanics, think logistically. If the players clear the first room, and gunshots or something else would give away their attack, then the bad guys are going to react. The next room may have the bad guys behind a table or even gone because they have consolidated their forces in a defensible area. Unless the NPCs are Overconfident, Arrogant, and Hard of Hearing, it's not likely they would stick around waiting for the heroes to get them. Wink

The other question would be how many Bennies are being spent for them? If an Extra takes a single wound, even just a d6 Vigor means they have a 50/50 chance of Soaking it and removing the Shaken as well. If it makes the fight more exciting, then why not.

Kertain wrote:
a)
So of course my players get the best armor my tech level will support: Kevlar with inserts. This is +8 to their toughness for all gun fights. I am finding it hard to roll damage high enough to penetrate thier armor. Also I am forced into putting some good armor on my bad guys just to keep them alive a few rounds.
Suggestions?


As noted, kevlar only affects the torso, so it's only a -2 to bypass that +8 Toughness. Again, that gets back to the NPCs just kind of acting realistically. They may all act on the same initiative, but it takes at most one hit that first round to determine their targets are wearing armor, and after that, shoot them in the arm or leg.

And really, if the setting has Kevlar, simply introduce armor piercing ammunition too.

Kertain wrote:
b)
Does armor get damaged over time? Seems a Kevlar vest would be less useful after several solid hits particular those with inserts. How do I manage this without a terrible amount of book keeping?


It's an object, so give it a Toughness value, and if it takes damage equal to that Toughness value of a type that would hurt it, then it's damaged.

Kertain wrote:
b)
Unarmored fights with armor: I had one last game and with fists there was no way to bypass armor and cause damage. Am I doing something wrong?


Well, it's not heavy armor, so the damage could still Ace and hurt the target moreso if the attackers have Gang Up and a chance for a raise for +1d6 damage. But if that have that, again, they could simply use the bonus to make a Called Shot to bypass the armor.

If three Extras are attacking a character in melee, they are all +2 for Gang Up. If they also Wild Attack, they are +4 to Fighting and +2 to damage. If they make a Called Shot to the head, that is now 3 unmodified Fighting rolls vs. Parry with +6 damage if any hit and no armor bonus. Unless the target has a base Toughness of 8, that is at least a minimum of a Shaken for any hit.

Hope that helps.
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Pariah74
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: SW questions: Balance and Armor Reply with quote

Kertain wrote:
Morning folks,
So I have another round of questions for the community:

1) Balance
So after several games I am still running into issues with balancing scenerios. The baddies my group are fighting just get mowed down with little to no resistence. I don't mind the player winning, but the victory needs to have some resistence/challenge.
Now I will admit my group is pretty tactical and are careful not to expose their flank, clear rooms..ect. They also made sure they have very good guns and the best armor I would allow.



Well, I have to ask a few questions here:
What did you allow them to start with? $500 or more?
What sort of guidelines do you follow for loot?
Are you building bad guys with the same rules as player characters?
Are you using the encounter balancing suggestions from SWD? (and somewhere here on the forums)
How often do your baddies ambush? Use cover? Use gang ups? Use Tricks? Use Tests of Will? Have complimentary or Leadership Edges?
Do your bad guys soak wounds?
Are your encounters just straight up fights or are you using special environmental rules like having them fight on a burning bridge, or in a room flooded with water?


Kertain wrote:
Other then just tripling the amount of mooks, any ideas? What do you folks to to keep the encounters challenging. I am concerned with just simply throwing more mooks at them because 1) they might get overwhelmed far too easily and 2) it looks like I am cheating Razz


I would suggest using mooks as bullet proof vests for your wild card bad guys. If mook is within 1" of a wild card he can leap in front of the attack and take the damage to save his over lord.

Other than that, I would look into how to balance your encounters from this post. http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=219169#219169


Kertain wrote:
2) Armor

a)
So of course my players get the best armor my tech level will support: Kevlar with inserts. This is +8 to their toughness for all gun fights. I am finding it hard to roll damage high enough to penetrate thier armor. Also I am forced into putting some good armor on my bad guys just to keep them alive a few rounds.
Suggestions?


Yes, a few:
1. In the future make that sort of equipment rare and/or expensive.
2. Enforce the Encumbrance rules. They're easy and SW is one of the few systems where I do use them. It balances armor very well. (A vest w/ inserts and a rifle is easily gonna take this character up to 22 lbs without even talking about ammo, or secondary weapons. Characters shouldn't be roaming around with unlimited ammo, weapons and supplies.
So a nice way to make them appreciate their resources is to send them into the wilderness and see how well they do with survival a fatigue. All that extra ammo starts to seem silly when they can't sleep because they have no tent to keep the rain or bugs off of them.
3. Add Marksman and d8 or d10 Shooting to a few bad guys and take some head shots. A nasty nasty nasty combo is: Marksman, Imp Level Headed, Dead Shot and a scope on an Ak-47.
4. Grenades.
5. Flamethrowers
6. Point Blank from a Sawed Off Double Barrel to the face.
7. They don't wear their armor all the time. No, no really they don't...no matter what they say. I don't know what sort of setting you're running but it sounds like your mooks need to take the fight to them...at dinner time, while their asleep, or while they're on the crapper.

Kertain wrote:
b)
Does armor get damaged over time? Seems a Kevlar vest would be less useful after several solid hits particular those with inserts. How do I manage this without a terrible amount of book keeping?


I'd say don't worry about it, but if you feel like you need to, make them replace it every time they go up a rank.

Kertain wrote:
b)
Unarmored fights with armor: I had one last game and with fists there was no way to bypass armor and cause damage. Am I doing something wrong?


1. If you're using unarmed bad guys and they're wearing armor, you shouldn't expect the baddies to do too well but here's something you can do.

1. Grappling. And a nice house rule is that the armor bonus is a penalty when grappling. Works in every system I have ever used it in.
2. Again, head shots. Punches should be flying at their heads, and probably two per round.
3. Wild Attacks and Gang Up. A mook with d6/d8 fighting and d6/d8 strength, and a wild attack to the head should be able to make them burn a bennie to soak.

think of it like this:
One of your players is just dozing off to sleep in his bunk (notice roll vs Stealth roll from mooks for surprise) when suddenly he hears a noise? There's 4 angry looking bruisers surrounding his bed. Deal initiative...
During the fight the mooks swing wildly (+2) and have gang up (+3) at his parry of 7(?). With a lousy d6 fighting they're gonna hit 5/6 of the time, and give them a d8 and they'll be scoring raises. They're bruisers so d8 str is not out of line. A punch to the head is still +1, and they'll do d8+6, or possibly d8+d6+2 on the body shots, if they get a raise.
Throw in brass knuckles and the acing gets worse. A head shot would likely be d8+d4+6 That's a minimum of 8 damage, which is gonna be shaken even with d12 Vigor. On average it would be 13 damage which is a wound to even a toughness of 8.

Mooks can be a pain if you use them right. Most of the time they're just there to use up a few of their resources tho. But remember, if they're spending bennies to soak mooks are hurting them.
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chillburn
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My two-cents: hit the PCs at their home. If these bad-asses are tearing through every target they're probably going to make a reputation for themselves. So have them get ambushed at their home/base when they're (presumably) not wearing they're +8 armor and carrying (at most) a sidearm.

And BUMP on improving the enemy's tactics. All things considered a couple extras with comparable equipment and using comparable tactics should be able to get in a wound (or at least force a benny-use) before going down.
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robert4818
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: SW questions: Balance and Armor Reply with quote

Kertain wrote:
Morning folks,
So I have another round of questions for the community:

1) Balance
So after several games I am still running into issues with balancing scenerios. The baddies my group are fighting just get mowed down with little to no resistence. I don't mind the player winning, but the victory needs to have some resistence/challenge.
Now I will admit my group is pretty tactical and are careful not to expose their flank, clear rooms..ect. They also made sure they have very good guns and the best armor I would allow.

Other then just tripling the amount of mooks, any ideas? What do you folks to to keep the encounters challenging. I am concerned with just simply throwing more mooks at them because 1) they might get overwhelmed far too easily and 2) it looks like I am cheating Razz

2) Armor

a)
So of course my players get the best armor my tech level will support: Kevlar with inserts. This is +8 to their toughness for all gun fights. I am finding it hard to roll damage high enough to penetrate thier armor. Also I am forced into putting some good armor on my bad guys just to keep them alive a few rounds.
Suggestions?

b)
Does armor get damaged over time? Seems a Kevlar vest would be less useful after several solid hits particular those with inserts. How do I manage this without a terrible amount of book keeping?

b)
Unarmored fights with armor: I had one last game and with fists there was no way to bypass armor and cause damage. Am I doing something wrong?

Sorry for the long list....I have been stockpiling questions Smile


You've been given lots of good advice. Before I offer my 2cents, quick questions:
What type of campaign are you playing right now?
Are you running some sort of Episodic thing (Here's the mission, go do it, next week will be different)?
Or are you running with something more continuous? (I.E. recurring villains, enemy villain organization, etc.)
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xxlgeeklord
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good tactical trap:
Players burst into the room, there are 4 standard mooks with AK-47s standing on hold. They open fire quickly, and one of them throws a grenade behind the players, forcing them further into the room before they can even act. thats nine shooting rolls at -0 each(aim), meaning your gonna at least shake one of hem. As they move further into the room have them make a Notice(-2 cause they're distracted) roll. There is an indoor balcony on the door side, on which a sniper with d10 shooting, marksman and a sniper rifle(2d10 damage) crouches behind a medium cover steel plate barricade(toughness 12) which grants medium cover. As the players are now surrounded by mooks with AK-47s the sniper will start picking them of with headshots. Make sure at least one good gunner makes the notice roll(you rolled a 3? Well, don't forget the +1 because he's smoking a cigar(source of light)). Also increase or decrease the amount of mooks in the room for bigger or smaller party's, and maybe give them DB shotguns instead of AK-47s. This trap will probably lead to a thrilling combat. I'm aiming for almost killing the players as a punishment for killing my beloved mooks, but giving them a good chance of victory.
Maybe this is logical, maybe I am just a psychopathic GM Twisted Evil
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Kertain
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks folks for all the input!

I will try to answer some of the questions that came up:

-Type of campaign: This is a Firefly campaign that is on going. My group tends to be pretty blood thirsty and have managed to raid a few armories..ect
We are on holiday break currently and I have time to fix bunch of things if needed Smile

-Funds: One of my players started with the rich edge and they also happened across something that netted them more money then I expected (I posted previously about it so I won't elaborate)
Between these two things they got pretty much the guns and armor they needed. I should definitely work the math and see how much they have left versus how much they spent. I haven't done that leg work, but now that they have the armor its not fair to retcon it out.

-Loot: I am a fairly new GM and really have only roleplayed with my current group (3+years) Typically our games have been pretty hands off loot wise and we get what we want. I guess I have trouble locking things down just because its not what we are use to. I am not sure now other groups handle loot and how GMs restrict their players access to gear.
The same group comes from a Shadowrun game that we are super rich and can get any equipment we want. Going from that game to mine I think we all still tend to not worry about equipment.

-Combat Rating balance: I tried this system outlined in SDW for a few encounters and they still mowed through it. I now tend to think I was just making it too easy. Thanks for all the advice on how to play smart. Very good stuff Smile

-My encounters have mostly been straight up fights, but I like the idea to add environmental hazards that make thing more difficult.


Again thanks for all the feed back! I appreciate the time.
Seems I am limiting myself combat wise and in return not really showing my players what the system can do.
This is our first real run at Savage Worlds, so I expect this is part of the growing pains. In the future I will just take my time and look over all my combat options to be as tactical as possible and take advantage of some of the rules outlines here. Seems the problem mostly stemmed from my poor use of rules.

One comment from Clint did generate another question from me:
Where can I find some rules for extra AP for firearm ammo? Is this just something house ruled?
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Pariah74
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kertain wrote:
-Type of campaign: This is a Firefly campaign that is on going. My group tends to be pretty blood thirsty and have managed to raid a few armories..ect
We are on holiday break currently and I have time to fix bunch of things if needed Smile


Firefly verse, and they're wearing stolen (Alliance?) gear? Seems an easy fix IMO. They need to be caught and inspected by an Alliance cruiser. Their cargo and personal belongings seized and dragged on board for questioning. Let them talk their way out, or run a great escape scenario.

A good way to make escaping from a big cruiser exciting and plausible to make them think it's hopeless and leave them stuck in their cells at the end of a session for a cliff hanger. Then at the start of the next session, suddenly an explosion rocks the ship and their cell doors open. Now they have to get off the ship and they're on a time limit. If they start looking around for loot, or doing anything but heading toward the hanger to get their ship free, more explosions go off, and maybe some parts of hull or an entire bulkhead rips away and some redshirts get sucked into the black...it's a nice motivator.
Make the escape dangerous, and exciting enough and they'll be glad they're alive and still flying.

Which, if you don't mind a bit of criticism...should be (IMHO) how a Firefly campaign should feel. They should be "rich" from time to time, but most of the season they should be low on fuel, eating rations, conserving ammo, and just scraping by. Just my opinion tho...


Kertain wrote:
-Funds: One of my players started with the rich edge and they also happened across something that netted them more money then I expected (I posted previously about it so I won't elaborate)
Between these two things they got pretty much the guns and armor they needed. I should definitely work the math and see how much they have left versus how much they spent. I haven't done that leg work, but now that they have the armor its not fair to retcon it out.


You need to check their math on money? That doesn't seem right. I would trust that they spent their money correctly. Tho it does remind me of the player, that when asked how many arrows he had left told me, "I don't know...I thought you (the GM) tracked that." Uh...no, I got more important stuff to worry about. lol

As far as starting equipment I don't really restrict anything outside of what the setting does, but even in SW being rich doesn't get you much, and it doesn't allow you to carry any more than normal. I also never let funds for starting equipment get shared. For Firefly I would definitely restrict energy weapons, and some of the armor (I don't remember anyone in the show wearing armor much).


My one piece of advice for handing out loot is this:

The less good stuff you hand out, the more valuable it becomes to the players. This isn't true of every setting of course, and it wouldn't work to start being stingy in the middle of a campaign, but what I mean is that "treasure" is relative.
One of the funnest campaigns I ran was a post apocalyptic game where the players lived in a literal ghetto. They had $100 to buy starting equipment and had to spend some of it to get clothes and food. They had no homes, and had to fight to survive. After a few sessions, they were squatting in a parking garage and found a .357 revolver with 3 bullets in it. To them it was like a +3 long sword. That crappy little gun with 3 shots was serious treasure and they were overjoyed to find it.

Before that game I tended to be a bit of a Monty Hall GM, but it really opened my eyes. After that I was a bit more stingy with treasure, even in richer settings. There's always good stuff you can hand out that has one time usage (grenades, scrolls) to satisfy them until they find the big cool thing like a magic sword, or a really cool gun. Usually if you feed them some scraps to satisfy them, they'll appreciate that cookie all the more when they get it.

Again, just my 2 cents.
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robert4818
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kertain wrote:
Thanks folks for all the input!

I will try to answer some of the questions that came up:

-Type of campaign: This is a Firefly campaign that is on going. My group tends to be pretty blood thirsty and have managed to raid a few armories..ect
We are on holiday break currently and I have time to fix bunch of things if needed Smile

-Funds: One of my players started with the rich edge and they also happened across something that netted them more money then I expected (I posted previously about it so I won't elaborate)
Between these two things they got pretty much the guns and armor they needed. I should definitely work the math and see how much they have left versus how much they spent. I haven't done that leg work, but now that they have the armor its not fair to retcon it out.

-Loot: I am a fairly new GM and really have only roleplayed with my current group (3+years) Typically our games have been pretty hands off loot wise and we get what we want. I guess I have trouble locking things down just because its not what we are use to. I am not sure now other groups handle loot and how GMs restrict their players access to gear.
The same group comes from a Shadowrun game that we are super rich and can get any equipment we want. Going from that game to mine I think we all still tend to not worry about equipment.

-Combat Rating balance: I tried this system outlined in SDW for a few encounters and they still mowed through it. I now tend to think I was just making it too easy. Thanks for all the advice on how to play smart. Very good stuff Smile

-My encounters have mostly been straight up fights, but I like the idea to add environmental hazards that make thing more difficult.


Again thanks for all the feed back! I appreciate the time.
Seems I am limiting myself combat wise and in return not really showing my players what the system can do.
This is our first real run at Savage Worlds, so I expect this is part of the growing pains. In the future I will just take my time and look over all my combat options to be as tactical as possible and take advantage of some of the rules outlines here. Seems the problem mostly stemmed from my poor use of rules.

One comment from Clint did generate another question from me:
Where can I find some rules for extra AP for firearm ammo? Is this just something house ruled?


Well, since you are playing Firefly, there's alot you can do. Armor wear and tear is a definite possibility. Things tend to break in that setting. I would go with something along the lines of "If something manages to cause a wound in one shot (not two shakens), and is not soaked, the armor is reduced by 1"

Also, this group should be earning a reputation by now. Meaning people might start figuring out what to bring against them (such as the AP ammo clint suggested.)

Plus, being the FF setting, there's alot there that happens WITHOUT the firefights. Poison, Gas, Exposure, Hostages, Food/Water, etc.

You might also throw some missions in where combat = lose.
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Pariah74
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

robert4818 wrote:
You might also throw some missions in where combat = lose.


Yeah, that's a good one. You can always send them to a religious planet (they showed plenty of those) where the law of non-violence is taken to extremes.
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Kertain
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again, and Happy Thanksgiving Smile

You hit the nail in the head, I wanted this game to have that Firefly feel where each bullet should count and they are living on the edge. I pretty much failed at this and want to recapture this if possible.

During character creation I was a bit too generous with what I allowed them to start with. The player with the Rich edge said " I will buy you guys what you want" so that means everyone got Kevlar and he got Kevlar with inserts. They also got whatever gun I would allow (I limited it to modern weapons of course). I trust my players, but I didn't keep close tabs on how much money they all had left after character creation...that is what I meant by going over the math Smile

I need to see how much they had left for upkeep of their current ammo stockpile, ship upkeep...ect.
Like I said we are use to not dealing with anything of this so it was easy to just skip over.

It made the situation worse because on my very first game they managed to get away with far far far too much loot (two ships essentially) one of them being a gun ship. Now they have alot more money then I ever planned on.

I like the idea of them getting captured and their illegal gear getting taken away. Let them reset and fight for the "golden days" when they had whatever they wanted Smile

Thanks again guys.
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SavageGamerGirl
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another option.

It'll probably be difficult to bring in as it requires a change in the rules that hasn't been in force in the campaign before.

A solid shot, even with the best 'bulletproof' vests, can knock the wind out of you or even break a rib.

Even though they have +8 armor vs. bullets with their kevlar vests with ceramic inserts, that doesn't change the fact that a bullet is impacting them at hundreds of feet per second.

You might want to consider adding a dab more realism to the game by ruling that even if a bullet doesn't penetrate the armor, they still take the ballistic imact. In other words, if you fail to beat the character's armor-enhanced Toughness, they still take non-lethal damage against their normal Toughness from the impact.

It won't kill the character, but it might shake them, or even incapacitate them. And that's what a bullet proof vest is for anyway: to keep you alive if you are hit.
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Pariah74
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It might be easier to run it somewhat like cover. If the damage would have caused a wound without armor, then they are shaken.
So a character with Toughness of 7 wearing +8 kevlar would be knocked down and/or shaken on a damage result of 11-18. 19+ would cause wounds as normal.

Alternatively you could say that damage that is over their Toughness the Armor bonus knocks the character over regardless of whether it causes wounds. Then rule that getting up is an action. This would also make it fun to shoot people on horseback or in wagons and whatnot. You're on a building or wagon wearing kevlar but get shot, you fall and need to make an agility roll to keep from falling over the edge and taking falling damage.
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robert4818
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pariah74 wrote:
robert4818 wrote:
You might also throw some missions in where combat = lose.


Yeah, that's a good one. You can always send them to a religious planet (they showed plenty of those) where the law of non-violence is taken to extremes.


There's that, Rescue missions, snatch and grabs, Fragile shipments, etc.

Pretty much anything where open firefights can easily result in a lose.

The Rescue could be one where at the first sign of hostility they shoot the hostage.

The Snatch and grab could be for something that the people would rather blow up than get stolen.

The fragile shipments could be something that is ruined if jostled too much. (Great use of the "innocnet Bystander" rules as well, just consider the person carrying the shipment to be in a situation of holding a hostage).


Finally of course, the enemy might look at the situation as one of Mutually Assured Destruction.
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77IM
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wild Attack!

-- 77IM, thinks Wild Attack will solve all your problems
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