Username:    Password:      Remember me       
Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group
Discussion Forum for PEG/GWG
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Superstrong supernaturals
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW Home-brew Settings & Conversions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Zadmar
Heroic


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1997
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Superstrong supernaturals Reply with quote

The Underworld thread got me thinking about the way supernatural creatures are often portrayed in fiction as being far stronger than humans. One example that immediately springs to mind is the Anita Blake novels, where even newly made vampires and werewolves are described as being able to bench press cars - and most types of supernatural creature seem to be roughly on-par with each other in terms of strength.

In the Horror Companion, vampires start with a d8 Strength and Vigor, which means an average Joe would have d10 Strength and Vigor when turned into a vampire. But that's still below the top human strength, and (going by NE) you'd actually need d12+4 to lift a car!

So this got me thinking. Imagine a setting where supernatural creatures (vampires, werewolves, demons, etc) are on their own strength scale - they're comparable with each other in the same way different humans are comparable with each other, but a supernatural is far stronger than a mortal. However as PCs and most Big Bads would be supernatural, I would rather keep the normal d4/d6/etc range for both. How would you represent that?

In TriStat there's an ability called "Superstrength" which moves the character onto a whole new scale - that's the sort of thing I've got in mind. I guess it could even be classified as a Monstrous Ability, something along the lines of:

Superstrong

* Add +4 to all Strength rolls (including melee/thrown damage).
* Add +4 to Toughness.
* Wild Cards roll a d10 Wild Die for Strength and Vigor tests.
* Cause knockback as described in NE (unless enemy is bigger than you).
* Jump an extra 1" for each raise on the Strength roll.
* Melee attacks are treated as Heavy Weapons (but most weapons break on a 1).
* Ignore the Strength requirements on (regular) weapons.
* Multiply your Load Limit by 50 (done this way so it stacks with Brawny).

This would obviously replace the vampire's bonuses to Strength and Vigor, so someone with d4 strength who was turned into a vampire would still have only d4 strength - but it would be superstrength. They'd add +4 to their strength rolls (and use a d10 Wild Die for strength contests if they were a WC), so they'd generally overpower even the strongest of humans, and the maximum weight they could lift would be 2 tons (the same as an average car).

Obviously this is a very strong ability (no pun intended), but the idea is it would apply to most supernatural creatures (spellcaster types being the possible exception), so for most challenging encounters the +4 damage and +4 toughness would cancel out. But equally, when a supernatural does go up against a mortal, it's not necessarily instant death for the human - it's effectively +1 wound against a WC, which is still nasty, but not as brutal as getting hit by someone with d12+4 strength.

As most supernaturals would be superstrong, they'd be able to go toe-toe-toe with each other much like the epic fight scenes in Underworld, Blade, etc, leaping great distances and smashing each other through walls.

This would of course be a setting rule for a specific style of game, certainly not something I would suggest adding to all SW games. But I think it could work quite well for simulating a setting like the Anita Blake series.

Any major problems I've overlooked? Would you do it differently?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Virgobrown72
Heroic


Joined: 19 Jan 2010
Posts: 1052
Location: The other side of the Sun, baby!!!

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might leave the Wild Die a d6, but, yeah, i could see that....
You could even give it a cool name like unholy strength or something like that....
Hmmmmmm.....
Hmmmmmmm.......



I'm stealin' it!!! Twisted Evil


Yoink!!!

Wink
_________________
If it ain't Fast, Furious, and Fun, it just ain't SAVAGE!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Heroic


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1997
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah I wasn't quite sure about the Wild Die either, but I figured the master vampires and alpha werewolves would probably be Wild Cards - and in books/movies the leaders tend to be physically stronger and tougher than the others.

But perhaps the Wild Die bonus could be handled through a Legendary Edge that requires Superstrong and Wild Card.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
kreider204
Heroic


Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Posts: 1716

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might want to check out the supers companion - it has some rules for dealing with super strength that bump up the load limits dramatically, add a knockback effect to melee attacks, etc.
_________________
"It only takes an extra second to be courteous."
- Constable Benton Fraser
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Heroic


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1997
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kreider204 wrote:
You might want to check out the supers companion - it has some rules for dealing with super strength that bump up the load limits dramatically, add a knockback effect to melee attacks, etc.

As far as I'm aware, SPC handles super strength and knockback the same as NE. As I mentioned in the second paragraph, going by NE you'd need a strength of d12+4 to lift a car - I really don't want that as the starting strength for supernatural creatures. You'd end up with a strength in the range d12+4 to d12+8, and a human simply wouldn't survive that. Plus you'd have to pump up vigor as well in order to prevent supernaturals from one-shotting each other, and that would then have a knock-on effect on soak rolls, incapacitation, etc - have you ever tried killing someone who's got d12+8 Vigor? Razz

I have however lifted the knockback rules from SPC/NE.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boldfist
Heroic


Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 1222
Location: Cleveland, OH

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
You'd end up with a strength in the range d12+4 to d12+8, and a human simply wouldn't survive that.


That's pretty much how it goes in the Anita Blake books. A normal human vs. even a new vampire = dead meat.

I have used the SPC for these types of games and it works very well. Here is my template for a newborn vampire ala the Anita Blake setting.

Ageless (1)
Attack, Melee (2)
Claws
Darkvision (1) Requires Activation
Extra Actions (3)
Fear (3)
Heightened Senses (1)
Mind Control (3)
Super Attribute (4) Strength +4 steps
Undead (2) Vampire

That's 20 Power Points and covers just about everything that a new vamp would need.
_________________
Norm "No Relation" Hensley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
kreider204
Heroic


Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Posts: 1716

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
kreider204 wrote:
You might want to check out the supers companion - it has some rules for dealing with super strength that bump up the load limits dramatically, add a knockback effect to melee attacks, etc.

As far as I'm aware, SPC handles super strength and knockback the same as NE.


I'm not sure about NE, but SPC has options for scaling power levels that include strength - for example, the Cosmic Heroes multiply load limits over d12 by 10, so a 12+1 would be able to lift a car or two (4000 lbs); it also bumps up knockback a bit.

Again, not sure about NE, so the reference to SPC was just a suggestion.
_________________
"It only takes an extra second to be courteous."
- Constable Benton Fraser
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Heroic


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1997
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boldfist wrote:
That's pretty much how it goes in the Anita Blake books. A normal human vs. even a new vampire = dead meat.

And against an extra that'll still be the case, even with my approach. But when you're talking strength in the range d12+4 to d12+8, even a Wild Card human is likely to die in one hit, and I don't want that - I want more of a pulp feel. Plus there's the issue with Vigor, as I mentioned already.

I ran the NE plot point campaign, and I like the system, but it creates a different sort of feel in combat when everyone has d12+lots on their rolls. That's not what I'm aiming for here - as I said before, I'd rather keep the normal d4/d6/etc range for supernaturals as well as humans. That might not work so well in a superhero game, where there's a gradual shift from human to super, but in this case I actually want two distinct categories.

Boldfist wrote:
I have used the SPC for these types of games and it works very well. Here is my template for a newborn vampire ala the Anita Blake setting.

Ageless (1)
Attack, Melee (2)
Claws
Darkvision (1) Requires Activation
Extra Actions (3)
Fear (3)
Heightened Senses (1)
Mind Control (3)
Super Attribute (4) Strength +4 steps
Undead (2) Vampire

That's 20 Power Points and covers just about everything that a new vamp would need.

That's a pretty decent vampire template in general, but it's too weak for an Anita Blake vamp - it's repeatedly stressed in the books that even a new vampire can bench press a car, and that requires d12+4 strength. You'd need +8 steps to bring it up from d4. I don't recall the vampires having claws, either, but admittedly it's been a while since I read the books (the earlier ones were really good, but I lost interest when the later books turned into erotic fiction).

However even in its weaker form it suffers from the glass cannon problem, which is one of the main things I wanted to avoid - thus my balance of +4 damage vs +4 Toughness, ensuring that two supernaturals can fight each other as effectively as two mortals could. Your vampires can dish out far more damage than they can take, even with the Undead bonus.

kreider204 wrote:
I'm not sure about NE, but SPC has options for scaling power levels that include strength - for example, the Cosmic Heroes multiply load limits over d12 by 10, so a 12+1 would be able to lift a car or two (4000 lbs); it also bumps up knockback a bit.

Ah okay, that does sound a bit different then. NE has a "Superhuman strength" table that lists a max weight of 2 tons for strength d12+4, and there are some guidelines for using cars and such as melee and thrown weapons. I hadn't realised it had changed in the SPC.

But still, the SPC/NE approach really isn't what I'm after. I only recently bought the Horror Companion, and it has some great ideas, but I'm just looking for a way to represent supernaturals similar to those in Anita Blake, Buffy, Blade, Underworld, etc - where the vampires/etc are clearly much stronger than humans, but the different supernaturals usually seem capable of going toe-to-toe with each other, and you still get the occasional heroic WC humans who can hold their own.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boldfist
Heroic


Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 1222
Location: Cleveland, OH

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
And against an extra that'll still be the case, even with my approach. But when you're talking strength in the range d12+4 to d12+8, even a Wild Card human is likely to die in one hit, and I don't want that - I want more of a pulp feel. Plus there's the issue with Vigor, as I mentioned already.


I can understand not wanting to use the SPC. But I'm not sure how you are getting a Wild Card human dying in "one hit" to a creature with d12+8 strength? A Wild Card has 3 Wound Levels and the ability to Soak with bennies. And there is no Wild Die with the Strength roll. Unless you are adding extra damage to their attack (like claws or something)?

Quote:
That's a pretty decent vampire template in general, but it's too weak for an Anita Blake vamp - it's repeatedly stressed in the books that even a new vampire can bench press a car, and that requires d12+4 strength. You'd need +8 steps to bring it up from d4.


Well, that's a Template to place over an existing character. It's also very flexible in that not every vampire has the same abilities or the same powers. Dropping the Extra Action (for 3 PPs) would give you 3 more levels to Strength. But most characters will have more than a d4 Strength when they are turned into a vamp anyway.

Quote:
However even in its weaker form it suffers from the glass cannon problem, which is one of the main things I wanted to avoid <snip>.Your vampires can dish out far more damage than they can take, even with the Undead bonus.


Again, with 3 Wounds and the ability to Soak these vampires can take some damage. And the Undead power allows a natural healing roll once per day. Especially in the Anita Blake books vampires were injured a lot. But they would heal the damage eventually. And the more powerful ones (read older = more Power Points) could do it much quicker using Fast Regeneration or True Regeneration. I guess I'm not sure (without seeing more) how your vampires will do damage and resist it other than +4 Strength and +4 Toughness? If you add +4 to the d4 Strength of a vampire how will it hurt a normal human?

Quote:
But still, the SPC/NE approach really isn't what I'm after. I only recently bought the Horror Companion, and it has some great ideas, but I'm just looking for a way to represent supernaturals similar to those in Anita Blake, Buffy, Blade, Underworld, etc - where the vampires/etc are clearly much stronger than humans, but the different supernaturals usually seem capable of going toe-to-toe with each other, and you still get the occasional heroic WC humans who can hold their own.


I get it, sorta. I'm just not sure why the SPC wouldn't work for you instead of trying to come up with something "else" that doesn't seem like it would work as well? Buffy, Blade, Underworld are "super" settings really. And the +4 to Strength & Toughness just doesn't seem super enough to me for those types of games.
_________________
Norm "No Relation" Hensley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
ValhallaGH
Legendary


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5924

PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Superstrong supernaturals Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
In the Horror Companion, vampires start with a d8 Strength and Vigor, which means an average Joe would have d10 Strength and Vigor when turned into a vampire. But that's still below the top human strength, and (going by NE) you'd actually need d12+4 to lift a car!

Increase their multiplier from x5 to x50. Sure, 2,000 lbs is a small car, but it is a car, and they can lift it (with difficulty). If you really want to make them ridiculous, x75 or x100.
Carrying 750 to 1000 lbs as "no encumbrance" really says "I'm stronger than you" and it does it without putting their damage to obscene levels.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Heroic


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1997
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boldfist wrote:
I can understand not wanting to use the SPC. But I'm not sure how you are getting a Wild Card human dying in "one hit" to a creature with d12+8 strength? A Wild Card has 3 Wound Levels and the ability to Soak with bennies. And there is no Wild Die with the Strength roll. Unless you are adding extra damage to their attack (like claws or something)?

Well I'm assuming that combatants would typically use some sort of weapon, natural or otherwise. Your vampire template has claws - which (because they're based on Attack, Melee) would technically stack with wielded weapons according to the RAW.

So a Blade-inspired vampire picks up a katana and he'd be dishing out d12+2d6+10 damage - an average of 5 wounds against a Toughness 5 human. Use the "Chewing the Scenery" rules from NE (not sure if SPC has the same rules) and that d12+8 strength vampire could actually wield a city bus as a melee weapon, inflicting 2d12+d6+15 damage - an average of 7 wounds against a Toughness 5 human.

Wild Cards can use bennies to soak, but a normal human with d6 Vigor has a 50% chance of soaking 1 wound, a 13.9% chance of soaking 2, a 2.8% chance of soaking 3, etc (they'd effectively roll twice per benny with the Wild Die, but that's still not great odds). They're unlikely to survive one blow from the vampire with the katana, let alone the one with the bus. Even another vampire would be lucky to survive such a blow.

Boldfist wrote:
I guess I'm not sure (without seeing more) how your vampires will do damage and resist it other than +4 Strength and +4 Toughness? If you add +4 to the d4 Strength of a vampire how will it hurt a normal human?

My d4 strength vampire, with a katana, would dish out d6+d4+6 damage per blow (not including things like raises and knockback). That's an average of 2 wounds against a Toughness 5 human, and anything other than snake eyes would inflict at least 1 wound. Extras couldn't stand against that, but a WC human could feasibly survive a few hits.

Let's say the human has a katana as well. He has d6 strength, so he'd inflict 2d6+2 damage per blow. Let's say my vampire only has d4 vigor, that'd give him a base Toughness of 4 - but he'd get +2 from Undead and +4 from Superstrong, giving him a final Toughness of 10. The human would have to Ace to inflict even 1 wound, and if I used the d10 Wild Die rule the vampire would have a good chance of soaking.

Even without weapons, that d4+4 strength would make the vampire a superb grappler. Alternatively he could use Wild Attack and knockback to kick people into walls, trees, buildings, etc, inflicting d6+d4+6 damage - an average of 2 wounds against a Toughness 5 human.

Boldfist wrote:
I get it, sorta. I'm just not sure why the SPC wouldn't work for you instead of trying to come up with something "else" that doesn't seem like it would work as well?

NE/SPC doesn't work well for mixing supers and non-supers. I actually recommended it on the Underworld thread, based on what the poster was trying to do - but it's not a good fit for what I'm trying to do here, because I actually want Wild Card humans to have a fighting chance. Think Abraham Whistler from Blade, or Xander Harris from Buffy. They're clearly not as strong as the vampires, but as high rank Wild Cards they're still able to take down vampire extras (and before someone suggests it, no, I don't want to give them the "Lucky" power!).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ValhallaGH
Legendary


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5924

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
Your vampire template has claws - which (because they're based on Attack, Melee) would technically stack with wielded weapons according to the RAW.

No, they wouldn't, because claws and swords don't stack. Claims otherwise are straw men.

Quote:
Let's say my vampire only has d4 vigor, that'd give him a base Toughness of 4 - but he'd get +2 from Undead and +4 from Superstrong, giving him a final Toughness of 10.

Versus d4+d6+6 = average 13 damage using a weapon that could only be acquired through GM fiat.
Using something saner, like a longsword, you've got d4+d8+4 = average 12 damage. Which is mean, but not broken. A less extreme example would be d8 strength, for 2d8+4 = average 14. Assuming similar build for Toughness, that's 12.

... Super Strength will work. It's a bit more complex than I'd like to see, and it is one of the most powerful monstrous abilities I've seen, but it will work.
Crossing PCs with Super-Strength with PCs without, however, is going to be ... nearly impossible for fairness. Super strength is about a +25 racial ability (maybe more) - you can't make that balanced with non-super-strength PCs. So, either everyone should have it or no one should - unless your group is good at handling that sort of massive disparity in PC power.


Best of luck.
_________________
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Heroic


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1997
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
Zadmar wrote:
Your vampire template has claws - which (because they're based on Attack, Melee) would technically stack with wielded weapons according to the RAW.

No, they wouldn't, because claws and swords don't stack. Claims otherwise are straw men.

I'm talking about the rules as written. Attack, Melee clearly states "This bonus may be stacked with hand weapons as usual. A villain with a great sword (+d10 damage) and one level in attack, melee, for instance, does Str+d10+1d6 points of damage."

If you decide that the trappings for this particular Attack, Melee power means it doesn't stack with weapons, then of course that's your decision as GM. But that's a really hefty penalty, and you should balance it by adding some other bonus - for example, I might allow the player to have the Natural Weapons +1 racial ability (from the FC) for free in return for Attack, Melee not working with anything else, then they'd at least inflict 2d6 damage (which is still weaker than even a longsword, but they'd have the benefit of concealment and immunity to disarm). But now you're into the land of house rules and GM interpretation, and each GM is likely to have different opinions on what is acceptable and what isn't.

ValhallaGH wrote:
... Super Strength will work. It's a bit more complex than I'd like to see, and it is one of the most powerful monstrous abilities I've seen, but it will work.
Crossing PCs with Super-Strength with PCs without, however, is going to be ... nearly impossible for fairness. Super strength is about a +25 racial ability (maybe more) - you can't make that balanced with non-super-strength PCs. So, either everyone should have it or no one should - unless your group is good at handling that sort of massive disparity in PC power.


As I said in my first post, "Obviously this is a very strong ability (no pun intended), but the idea is it would apply to most supernatural creatures (spellcaster types being the possible exception)" - and the general idea was that "PCs and most Big Bads would be supernatural". I agree that human witches, sorcerers, etc, would be at a disadvantage, but I was thinking of "normal" humans like Xander and Whistler as being sidekicks rather than PCs.

This is a recognised issue anyway though. The Horror Companion actually warns that "monsters are often far more powerful than normal humans, so the Game Master should take care to ensure the setting suits their abilities" and further notes that "not all monsters are created equal. In a mixed group players might find that some of them are more powerful than others".

But I think that having a common "Superstrong" monstrous ability that applies across the board should actually make it a little easier to balance the supernatural races against each other.

I should also note that the vampires' vulnerability to wooden weapons would actually allow you to cancel out their Superstrong Toughness bonus, and carrying garlic would give them -2 on their Fighting roll against you (which I'd consider about equal in value to the +4 damage bonus they get). So technically, a prepared vampire hunter should already be able to hold their own, even before factoring in the high-tech gear like UV Grenades, Winch Crossbows, Garlic Bullets, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clint
Site Admin


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 17348

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
But equally, when a supernatural does go up against a mortal, it's not necessarily instant death for the human - it's effectively +1 wound against a WC, which is still nasty, but not as brutal as getting hit by someone with d12+4 strength.


As noted below, the only real difference is the die type; the +4 is still +4, and that's the kicker.

Zadmar wrote:
Well I'm assuming that combatants would typically use some sort of weapon, natural or otherwise. Your vampire template has claws - which (because they're based on Attack, Melee) would technically stack with wielded weapons according to the RAW.


As already noted, Norm listed his trappings as "claws," which pretty clearly would not stack with weapons. Trappings and how they alter powers are part of the RAW.

Zadmar wrote:
So a Blade-inspired vampire picks up a katana and he'd be dishing out d12+2d6+10 damage - an average of 5 wounds against a Toughness 5 human. Use the "Chewing the Scenery" rules from NE (not sure if SPC has the same rules) and that d12+8 strength vampire

<snip>

My d4 strength vampire, with a katana, would dish out d6+d4+6 damage per blow (not including things like raises and knockback).


I may be wrong, but in addition to saying claws stack with katanas, aren't you also comparing the highest Strength using d12+X versus the lowest Strength using your rules. You stated at the beginning that it would require D12+4 minimum for a vampire, so the real comparison would be a d4 vs. that...

D12+D6+6 vs. D4+d6+6. Meaning the real difference is between the D4 and D12 is 3.76 points of damage on average.

And really if the issue is just "vampires can benchpress a car," then as someone suggested a variant of the Environmental rules from the SPC may be more applicable. The Cosmic version for instance increases all Load Limits by x10. That same concept could be applied to the setting via an ability like...

Super Strength - Starting Strength is d12 and Load Limits are multiplied by 10.

So the "weak" vampire at d12 with no other points spent in Strength could lift 2400 lbs. maximum. He can't lift any car, but he could lift a Beetle or a Smart Car or other compact vehicles.

Now, if the damage comparison is run again, we're looking at d12+d6+2 versus d4+d6+6 where now the higher die type is actually going to do slightly less damage on average and definitely have a much lower minimum damage (4 points vs. 8 points) which would give "normal people" a better chance when fighting them.

If that is one of the intents, that may be a preferable option.

Another thing to keep in mind whether Load Limit is x10 or x50 is what keeps the supernaturals from using a bunch of gear than "normals" couldn't keep up with. In other words, why wouldn't every vampire wear Kevlar with inserts when the weight is just a fraction of what they can carry. Increased Load Limit is an advantage in the system beyond just being able to pick up cars.

Perhaps they have an "allergy" to non-natural materials, so using kevlar or guns with polymer grips, etc. would cause them penalties. Or maybe their innate supernatural aura disrupts technological creations.

Anyway, some thoughts.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
kreider204
Heroic


Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Posts: 1716

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:

Perhaps they have an "allergy" to non-natural materials, so using kevlar or guns with polymer grips, etc. would cause them penalties. Or maybe their innate supernatural aura disrupts technological creations.


The OP mentioned the Buffyverse - in that case, quite a bit is made of how anti-technology most vampires and demons are, so a hindrance or two would do the trick - maybe a technology Phobia and / or All Thumbs (or All Claws ... Wink ).
_________________
"It only takes an extra second to be courteous."
- Constable Benton Fraser
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zadmar
Heroic


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1997
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
As already noted, Norm listed his trappings as "claws," which pretty clearly would not stack with weapons. Trappings and how they alter powers are part of the RAW.

But wouldn't you agree that such a limitation is a pretty hefty drawback? It was my understanding that trappings should be balanced - so if you add a bonus, you should also add a comparable penalty, and vice versa. Thus my Natural Weapons suggestion.

Clint wrote:
I may be wrong, but in addition to saying claws stack with katanas, aren't you also comparing the highest Strength using d12+X versus the lowest Strength using your rules.

It wasn't intended as a comparison, I was just answering Boldfist's questions - first he wanted to know "how you are getting a Wild Card human dying in "one hit" to a creature with d12+8 strength?", and then he asked "If you add +4 to the d4 Strength of a vampire how will it hurt a normal human?". So I was first explaining why I felt d12+8 was too strong (for what I wanted), and then explaining why I felt d4+4 wasn't too weak (to hurt a normal human).

For comparison purposes you're right, it would be "d4+4 vs d12+4" and "d12+4 vs d12+8".

Clint wrote:
Super Strength - Starting Strength is d12 and Load Limits are multiplied by 10.

The goal is that two supernaturals can fight each other as effectively as two mortals. With +4 Strength and +4 Toughness, those two bonuses would completely cancel each other out. But when you increase Strength to d12, how do you balance that? You could increase Vigor to d12 as well, but that would impact other things (like soak and incapacitation), and it doesn't quite scale the same after d12 either. You could just keep the +4 Toughness, but that's only comparable on average, because a bigger die will generally give a wider range of results.

It just seemed easier to make it a flat +4 bonus on both sides. Plus I kind of like the idea of d6 being "average" relative to your race.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Clint
Site Admin


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 17348

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
Clint wrote:
As already noted, Norm listed his trappings as "claws," which pretty clearly would not stack with weapons. Trappings and how they alter powers are part of the RAW.

But wouldn't you agree that such a limitation is a pretty hefty drawback?


Not if that is the base trapping for the power in the setting. Trappings don't have to be individually chosen; they can be determined according the setting as well (such as all 50 Fathom magic being elemental).

Zadmar wrote:
The goal is that two supernaturals can fight each other as effectively as two mortals.


Okay, so that is the primary goal, got it. A comment was made about mortals having a better chance against them, but if that is going to play second fiddle to them being equal to each other, then different kettle of fish.

Zadmar wrote:
[It just seemed easier to make it a flat +4 bonus on both sides. Plus I kind of like the idea of d6 being "average" relative to your race.


Then let me toss out this. Why not just make the supernaturals the baseline and make mortals weaker instead? That way supernaturals work exactly like mortals between each other.

It could be as simple as saying that all "supernaturals" are Wild Cards and true "mortals" are Extras.

You can even add the Setting Rule that Extras are Shaken on any damage below Toughness and Incapacitated by any attack equal to Toughness. That effectively drops their "Toughness" by 4, making it easier for supernaturals to take them out (supernaturals effectively tougher in comparison).

Then all Supernatural Strength does (for those who have it) is increase Load Limit, give a bonus to grapple/escape, and perhaps a +1d6 bonus melee attack.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Zadmar
Heroic


Joined: 10 Nov 2010
Posts: 1997
Location: Munich

PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Zadmar wrote:
But wouldn't you agree that such a limitation is a pretty hefty drawback?

Not if that is the base trapping for the power in the setting.

The proposal that led to this line of discussion was to use the SPC to create supernatural templates, and if you did that for vampires I think you'd really need to use it for everyone. Perhaps vampires have claws, but a demon might be able to infuse their weapons with hellfire, while a troll would simply hit incredibly hard - they're all trappings for the same power, but some might well allow the use of weapons.

Clint wrote:
Then let me toss out this. Why not just make the supernaturals the baseline and make mortals weaker instead? That way supernaturals work exactly like mortals between each other.

It could be as simple as saying that all "supernaturals" are Wild Cards and true "mortals" are Extras.

That would be one decent way of differentiating between them. However imagine a setting like Blade - the main character would clearly be a supernatural Wild Card, but all those dozens of nameless vampires he slices and dices? Extras. Likewise, what about Whistler? He might just be mortal (and an old man with a limp at that), but he's also a successful vampire hunter - definitely Wild Card material, in my opinion. So I think I'd rather be able to have both supernaturals and mortals as either Wild Cards or Extras.

I reckon a WC mortal vampire hunter could still take on vampire Extras, as long as he was careful - and particularly if he was armed with some of those lovely weapons from the Horror Companion!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Boldfist
Heroic


Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 1222
Location: Cleveland, OH

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've dropped out of the conversation because I don't really have any more to add. It's definitely a different way of looking at Setting Rules and I'd be interested in seeing how the final version works in play for you Zadmar!

Keep us posted.
_________________
Norm "No Relation" Hensley
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Clint
Site Admin


Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 17348

PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zadmar wrote:
Clint wrote:
Zadmar wrote:
But wouldn't you agree that such a limitation is a pretty hefty drawback?

Not if that is the base trapping for the power in the setting.

The proposal that led to this line of discussion was to use the SPC to create supernatural templates, and if you did that for vampires I think you'd really need to use it for everyone. Perhaps vampires have claws, but a demon might be able to infuse their weapons with hellfire, while a troll would simply hit incredibly hard - they're all trappings for the same power, but some might well allow the use of weapons.


It might; if those options occur in the setting. There are no demons with hellfire or trolls in Blade or Underworld. And there are no such PCs in Anita Blake, which is what Norm's template was offered for.

Since that was the specific setting being referenced, it does not have to cover options that don't exist for PCs in that setting.



Zadmar wrote:
That would be one decent way of differentiating between them. However imagine a setting like Blade - the main character would clearly be a supernatural Wild Card, but all those dozens of nameless vampires he slices and dices? Extras. Likewise, what about Whistler? He might just be mortal (and an old man with a limp at that), but he's also a successful vampire hunter - definitely Wild Card material, in my opinion. So I think I'd rather be able to have both supernaturals and mortals as either Wild Cards or Extras.

I reckon a WC mortal vampire hunter could still take on vampire Extras, as long as he was careful - and particularly if he was armed with some of those lovely weapons from the Horror Companion!


The disconnect as I see it is that Whistler would never have faced an Anita Blake vampire who could throw a car at him. Blade vampires (and those of Underworld, Buffy, or whatever) have never been shown or stated to have that level of strength. That's not even touching the fact that they have very different weaknesses.

Trying to make a "one size fits all" ability that covers all those settings or heck, just two of them, isn't going to work

I'd recommend clarifying and specifying the setting more. Is is specifically going to be X or Y, or is it going to be different and perhaps take aspects from multiple ones (making sure they don't contradict each other). As it stands, the references include Underworld, Blade, Anita Blake, and Buffy where despite similarities, they are all distinctive settings where one overarching rule is going to be hamstrung by their differences.

These are important considerations because it's harder to make a character like Whistler from Blade (even as an NPC) viable against Anita Blake vampires where all the "PCs" are supernatural themselves. Even Edward is "supernatural" in that he is basically Batman, with abilities no other human could have.

There is a big difference between Edward being the "human" who survives hunting vampires in Anita Blake and Whistler being able to do it in Blade.

Anyway, just saying, like any setting the rules have to be tailored for it. The idea of making all the supernaturals Wild Cards and "normal" humans Extras would likely not work for Blade, but it could work for Anita Blake.

Utimately, like I said, I was just tossing out the idea based on the concept of making the playing field level for supernaturals.
_________________
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group Forum Index -> SW Home-brew Settings & Conversions All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum