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Savaging Greyhawk
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Pfr_Fate
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:08 pm    Post subject: Savaging Greyhawk Reply with quote

i need some input...see what people think. I am playing 4e and (being an old school gamer) am having trouble with it as a 'D&D' game. After a lot of thought, i found that I really miss Greyhawk, which is the AD&D 1st edition rules (they actually were more of a Setting book than a Core Rules....it was just that there WERE no other settings at the time!).

So, I savaged away: got a basic system for limiting races in skills and Professions. Got Racial Packages and more for the various Humans types (Flan, Baklun, Suel, etc.). It was coming together with that right 'vibe'.

Until Magic.

Old AD&D magic was a long list of spells, selected about once a day, keyed to your level and one shot castings. You old guys and gals might remember.

Now I could go one of these:

-straight SW Powers
-staright AD&D spell system (I will convert and re-type all those spells)

I don;t know! AD&D was so fixed and unique that it might not feel like AD&D savaged unless my clerics cast Hold Person and then lose that slot until a rest is needed. The AD&D spells were cast less than in SW, but they were more poerful (and some were ... odd....).. Any thoughts?
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kreider204
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some things I came up with for just this purpose:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Nf1fUxRi-LMTJmOWE3ZjItYzVkZC00ZGI4LTgxZTAtNmRmZmJhMjdiM2E0&hl=en_US

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Nf1fUxRi-LMDk5ZDRhYTUtNDY4Yy00YTBmLWFmN2YtNjMzNmU1NTRjYjM3&authkey=CKXj7Y4N&hl=en_US

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Nf1fUxRi-LMDdlMjFiMGQtZDVjOS00MWJkLWFiOTktNGM4MGY5MDM1NGFi&authkey=CL6Urf0K&hl=en_US

Use at your own risk. Smile
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BluSponge
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well first, far be it for me to plug an oooooold piece of mine:

http://www.savageheroes.com/conversions/Savage_Fantasy.pdf

While it's designed as a conversion for Lejendary Adventure, it should be quite serviceable. Keep in mind, you'll need the Fantasy Toolkits (not the Companion) to make full use of all the stuff in there.

With that out of the way, these days I'd probably go with just the straight up SW powers system, incorporating everything from the FC and SWD. It just isn't worth it (to me) to figure out how to weld the AD&D magic system to SW though if you follow the guidelines in the old d20 conversion document, you could probably do it. I would also plumb Shaintar and maybe even Hellfrost for ideas. I really don't find Greyhawk (pre-FtA) that explicitly tied to the D&D game; and the monster catalog in the FC should cover most of the bases for you.

Something else I was thinking about the other day for high fantasy games: what if instead of having a trapping per power, each trapping was a Knowledge. (ie. Knowledge (Fire Magic)). So now you have one trapping that runs through your entire spell catalog. If you want something new, you by up a new knowledge. These could work something like languages if you wanted. I'm sure I'm not the first person to have this idea, and it definitely needs refinement. But it seems like an interesting solution to the whole "high fantasy" SW problem.

Tom
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ogbendog
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IN the core rules, a Mad Science characgter could take the Gadget's edge to pick a power. it would have 1/2 as many PP, which is similar to costing 2x

for a mage, you could let them choose specific powers, or leave a slot "open". for specific powers, they can change the trappings each morning. for open slots, they can pick a power to go into it, but it costs 2x.

or you could could say they can choose any power, but they must preallocate their PP. 3 for a 3x bolt. 2 for a 3d6 damage bolt. 4 for an area snare.
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77IM
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Definitely check this out if you haven't already:
http://www.savageheroes.com/conversions/ADS.pdf

-- 77IM
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robert4818
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The free Hellfrost Download "Alternate Spellcasting" has a "Spells per day" system. It doesn't require memorization of spells, but is still limited in casting. You could easily DM Fiat memorization if you wanted to.

http://www.tripleacegames.com/Downloads/HellFrost/Alternate%20Spellcasting.pdf

That being said, remember the cardinal rule of conversions: Convert the world, not the rules. Is there a specific reason WHY you want to emulate spells/day?
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kreider204
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

robert4818 wrote:
The free Hellfrost Download "Alternate Spellcasting" has a "Spells per day" system. It doesn't require memorization of spells, but is still limited in casting. You could easily DM Fiat memorization if you wanted to.

http://www.tripleacegames.com/Downloads/HellFrost/Alternate%20Spellcasting.pdf

That being said, remember the cardinal rule of conversions: Convert the world, not the rules. Is there a specific reason WHY you want to emulate spells/day?


I'll interrupt here. Smile Because sometimes the rules are part of the world - a magic system is a good example of that. The SW power system just doesn't quite capture the kind of magic that exists in Greyhawk.

That being said, I eventually realized that I was trying to force SW to be a different game, which is never a good idea. Now I use C&C for classic Greyhawk / AD&D gaming, and SW for everything else.
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robert4818
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kreider204 wrote:
robert4818 wrote:
The free Hellfrost Download "Alternate Spellcasting" has a "Spells per day" system. It doesn't require memorization of spells, but is still limited in casting. You could easily DM Fiat memorization if you wanted to.

http://www.tripleacegames.com/Downloads/HellFrost/Alternate%20Spellcasting.pdf

That being said, remember the cardinal rule of conversions: Convert the world, not the rules. Is there a specific reason WHY you want to emulate spells/day?


I'll interrupt here. Smile Because sometimes the rules are part of the world - a magic system is a good example of that. The SW power system just doesn't quite capture the kind of magic that exists in Greyhawk.

That being said, I eventually realized that I was trying to force SW to be a different game, which is never a good idea. Now I use C&C for classic Greyhawk / AD&D gaming, and SW for everything else.


I agree. That this can be true. But I always start from the perspective of not converting rules. It then comes back to justifying whether a rule SHOULD be converted instead of justifying why it shouldn't (which is default).
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kreider204
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

robert4818 wrote:


I agree. That this can be true. But I always start from the perspective of not converting rules. It then comes back to justifying whether a rule SHOULD be converted instead of justifying why it shouldn't (which is default).


Very much agree.
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jasales
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a minimalist when it comes to converting things. I played all versions of D&D from 1979-2008. I've run several fantasy campaigns using Savage Words with former D&Ders and it has been great. We're using standard magic stuff.

I have never understood the appeal of vancian magic systems but here is one for Savage Worlds. It looks like it would playout better than D&D's version.

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=31446

And I'd third the recommendation for Definitely check this out if you haven't already:
http://www.savageheroes.com/conversions/ADS.pdf
if you are trying to get that old DnD feel.
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Pfr_Fate
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All good thoughts.....I still have to wrap my head around the whole thing.

I don't want to recreate AD&D, just use SW with a strong AD&D flavor with minimum rule hacks...which is why the dilemma about AD&D spells - it seems to be a very flavorful part of that setting.....

So to give you wonderful responders a sneak peek into Savage Greyhawk (ala moi), and to give you an idea of where I am headed and such:



http://www.mediafire.com/file/b4yf3nk6sgbdqn4/SD%26D.doc

It is very much not complete, needs sterilizing of copyrights (though it is never gonna be for sale!), has a few holes and some decisions to be made and (of course) no spell system as of yet....but...take a look and comment!

Thanks!
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ogbendog
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you could make memorization part of the trappings, just as a priest probably prays every morning as well.

you could allow a mage to, maybe, start with 6 spells in their book, and each morning they pick with 3 they have prepared.

Or maybe they only start with 3, and can pick up more adventuring
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warrenss2
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

77IM beat me to my suggestion.

A link to Savage D&D.

I loved Greyhawk. I'm more geographically familiar with that world that the real on we live in.

I'm such a geek... Laughing
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Cryonic
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kreider204 wrote:
robert4818 wrote:
The free Hellfrost Download "Alternate Spellcasting" has a "Spells per day" system. It doesn't require memorization of spells, but is still limited in casting. You could easily DM Fiat memorization if you wanted to.

http://www.tripleacegames.com/Downloads/HellFrost/Alternate%20Spellcasting.pdf

That being said, remember the cardinal rule of conversions: Convert the world, not the rules. Is there a specific reason WHY you want to emulate spells/day?


I'll interrupt here. Smile Because sometimes the rules are part of the world - a magic system is a good example of that. The SW power system just doesn't quite capture the kind of magic that exists in Greyhawk.

That being said, I eventually realized that I was trying to force SW to be a different game, which is never a good idea. Now I use C&C for classic Greyhawk / AD&D gaming, and SW for everything else.


And yet the rules don't match too well with the fluff of the game system. Yes, the wizards in the books make mention of issues like memorizing spells, but somehow they always seem to have memorized the perfect number of various spells to keep the useful throughout the day. On top of that they can seem to counterspell all day long whereas the rules require them to either A) have the spell that is being cast on them memorized and burn there memorized version to counter the opponents spell, or B) have the 7th level spell Counterspell memorized and burn that casting. Yet neither is what happens in the novels.
Frankly, having played through Greyhawk adventures and the world, the magic system of Jack Vance wasn't what made the world interesting or unique. The places and the people were.
That massive list of spells just begged the question of why, after several thousand years of no real progress technologically, aren't the cities just powered by the crap-ton of magic items that adventurers seem to find all over the place. E.g. why does anyone need lamps or torches. With all the mages in the world every city and town should have a huge number of continual light rocks, stones, boards, nails, etc...
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Inferno!
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

warrenss2 wrote:
I'm more geographically familiar with that world that the real on we live in.:


Me too Embarassed
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Kristian Serrano
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cryonic wrote:
That massive list of spells just begged the question of why, after several thousand years of no real progress technologically, aren't the cities just powered by the crap-ton of magic items that adventurers seem to find all over the place. E.g. why does anyone need lamps or torches. With all the mages in the world every city and town should have a huge number of continual light rocks, stones, boards, nails, etc...
As a fan of Greyhawk, that's exactly why I fell in love with Eberron.
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BluSponge
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cryonic wrote:

That massive list of spells just begged the question of why, after several thousand years of no real progress technologically, aren't the cities just powered by the crap-ton of magic items that adventurers seem to find all over the place. E.g. why does anyone need lamps or torches. With all the mages in the world every city and town should have a huge number of continual light rocks, stones, boards, nails, etc...


Actually, for that you will want to track down a copy of Gygax's Living Fantasy from Troll Lord Games. It describes his vision of how a magically active society might operate (including all the things you've mentioned). It's a great book and one that always gets used when I'm working on a fantasy campaign.

Tom
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fanchergw
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That massive list of spells just begged the question of why, after several thousand years of no real progress technologically, aren't the cities just powered by the crap-ton of magic items that adventurers seem to find all over the place. E.g. why does anyone need lamps or torches. With all the mages in the world every city and town should have a huge number of continual light rocks, stones, boards, nails, etc...

I think this has always been one of my issues with fantasy games vs fantasy literature. In most of my favorite fantasy books, mages tend to be pretty rare and magic items moreso. Having a mage behind every rock, and every PC and NPC with 2 coins to rub together dripping with magic items really tends to kill the cool factor of magic for me.

Gordon
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Timon
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The AD&S conversion is truly beautiful, the style is so like the AD&D book I got a teensy bit misty-eyed...

I will never go back from FFF, but I remember sitting on my bedroom floor devouring the AD&D rules and imagining adventures based on them: thank you Mr Arenson and Mr Gygax.
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Pfr_Fate
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

!!!!!!!!!

OK...what about this:

I slowly adapt all the basic spells (maybe a few at a time, as needed by players). They will be divided into two groups: Normal and utility. Utiliity Spells are things like Detect Magic, Create Water, etc....non-combat stuff and not really useful spells (Cure Light Wounds, etc.).


The character starts with 3 Normal Spells Slots (not Powers), plus one if Attribute (Smarts or Spirit for Magic User/Illusionist or Cleric/Druid) is d10+. They have Utility Spell Slots at 1/2 (round down) the number of normal Spell Slots.

Normal Spells are selected to fill the Normal Slots after a good rest of around 6 hours. Then Prayer or memorization occurs during selection (about an hour or two). When a normal spell is cast, it is gone - the Slot is used until after the next rest. Additonally, you MUST keep the number of spells in a given Rank equal to or less than the number of the previous lower Rank. For example, if you have 4 Novice spell, you may only have 4 or less Seasoned spells. Of course, that is if you qualify for the Rank spell to begin with! Normal spells do not require an Arcane skill roll unless it is Oppossed (listed with a Saving Throw).

Utility Spell Slots are 'wild'...meaning they are left open to be used as the character requires. For example, if the character needs to use 'Detect Magic', he may do so (it is a Utillity Spell) then he uses up a Utility Slot until he can next rest. Utility Slots require a Casting die roll (the Arcane Skill) for success.

That should fix a few things with the old system and bring it forward....That is a rough idea, but what do you think?
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