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Sidney
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Joined: 11 Oct 2011
Posts: 91
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 Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:20 am Post subject: [SWD] Few questions on nonlethal damage. |
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The rules state that you need a blunt weapon (no modifier) or an edged weapon with a flat side (-1).
1. for weapons that don't fall into that category, like a rapier or a morningstar, would it be correct to assume the player could use the weapon's hilt/handle/shaft/grip as a small/medium Improvised Weapon? And if that is correct, would such weapon count as blunt (so -1 attack total) or you'd need to take a -1 penalty on top of it?
2. ranged weapons aren't covered by the rules, fairly logically, as they're fundamentally all piercing. It would be correct to assume that while rolling nonlethal damage is impossible, the player has a degree of control on the outcome of the shot if he only goes for Called Shots targeting limbs (arms/legs)? Of course it's still possible to kill a person with a shot to the limbs (a leg expecially), but would possibly be balanced to assume the Incapacitation effect is a knockout (just like in the Nonlethal damage rules) but the victim has to roll on the Injury table?
3. this is a design question so you're free to ignore it as it doesn't address the way the rules work, but wouldn't it be somewhat more logical to have a damage penality for nonlethal damage, compared to an hit penality?
Yes, it's probably harder to hit a person when you don't want to kill her, but more importantly you want to hit with far less strength than you would if you were out for a kill. This comes to mind expecially for things like baseball bats or twohanded sword. You definitely don't swing at the same speed and strength if you're not willing to risk breaking the target's head in two.
It's definitely not a system-specific issue (as it's done more or less in the same way in most systems I played), but it feels completely trivial to deal nonlethal damage in most cases, and of course that affects things well beyond combat - as you essentially need to be prepared for every villain being captured should the players wish so, as it's extremely easy to do so. |
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Clint
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Joined: 13 May 2003
Posts: 16176
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| Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:31 am Post subject: Re: [SWD] Few questions on nonlethal damage. |
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| Sidney wrote: | The rules state that you need a blunt weapon (no modifier) or an edged weapon with a flat side (-1).
1. for weapons that don't fall into that category, like a rapier or a morningstar, would it be correct to assume the player could use the weapon's hilt/handle/shaft/grip as a small/medium Improvised Weapon? And if that is correct, would such weapon count as blunt (so -1 attack total) or you'd need to take a -1 penalty on top of it? |
Well, as the Improvised Weapon rules say, "And sometimes characters find themselves using existing weapons in improvised ways..." so the GM could certainly allow that use for nonlethal damage.
The -1 penalty applies when using an edge weapon with a flat side, so it would only stack with Improvised Weapon if the improvised weapon itself was edged with a flat side. Barring some odd "enhancements," neither a rapier hilt nor a morningstart handle fall under that criteria.
| Sidney wrote: | | 2. ranged weapons aren't covered by the rules, fairly logically, as they're fundamentally all piercing. It would be correct to assume that while rolling nonlethal damage is impossible, the player has a degree of control on the outcome of the shot if he only goes for Called Shots targeting limbs (arms/legs)? Of course it's still possible to kill a person with a shot to the limbs (a leg expecially), but would possibly be balanced to assume the Incapacitation effect is a knockout (just like in the Nonlethal damage rules) but the victim has to roll on the Injury table? |
Well, as noted under the Disarm manuever, a ranged attack can be nonlethal if the attacker targets the weapon instead of the character (pg. 72).
Also, Called Shots notes that a shot to the limb may have some other "special effect," and the listings for Small and Tiny targets note that the GM can choose a particular effect based on the target. And as per Disarm, one possible effect based on the target could be nonlethal damage, but it's up to the GM to make the call based on the specific target.
| Sidney wrote: | | 3. this is a design question so you're free to ignore it as it doesn't address the way the rules work, but wouldn't it be somewhat more logical to have a damage penality for nonlethal damage, compared to an hit penality? |
Whether it is "more logical" would depend on not only perception but also the intended goal, and as noted, this isn't the topic for such discussions (or discussions at all for that matter). However, note that mathematically, a penalty to hit a target is also effectively a reduction in damage output. Most obviously, a penalty to attack means less chance of a raise for +1d6 damage. So an edged weapon is going to do less damage on average with the flat than the edge due to the attack penalty.
Hope that helps.
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Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager
www.peginc.com |
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