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xxlgeeklord
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Joined: 21 Nov 2011
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 Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 2:42 pm Post subject: Summon Ally overpowered |
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In the game I am playing in at the moment (Sundered Skies) one of the players is a Wierd Scientist with the Summon Ally Power. He can summon two ogres (he's Veteran) and this easily crushes any opposition. He appears to be much more powerful than anyone else because of the fact that he can simply summon hordes of minions that act after his turn. Am I perhaps missing something from the rules, or ignoring some obvious weakness of the Summon Ally Power besides attacking the device (it's a teleporter he keeps on his back, and he's a melee warrior). It seems he has become the most powerful player in the group just by taking that one Edge.
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Clint
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that Summon Ally isn't a power in Sundered Skies, much less an allowed power to Weird Science.
As I recall, it has its own setting specific version of the Summon power; Summon Elemental for Weird Science I believe, which is much more limited than the full Summon Ally. Just adding that power in with no equivalent limitations is certainly likely to be unbalanced.
Oh, and if allowing him to summon SS ogres with their Glowmad ability, that's more powerful as well (since "normal" ogres represent the maximum for Seasoned Rank).
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CitizenKeen
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Are you making him roll to maintain them every time he's Shaken or Fatigued?
Because I just realized I wasn't. |
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Jordan Peacock
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| Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know if it's an issue here, but I'd also note to make sure that:
1) The summoned ally is an EXTRA, not a Wild Card. No Wound levels, no Wild Dice, no Bennies.
2) The summoned ally, being an Extra and not just an extension of the caster, doesn't get to use the caster's Bennies (unless the caster has the appropriate Edge for that).
For my own fantasy game where I allowed the power, I limited it to just ONE summoned ally at a time per caster, too. While that was partly because of concern of someone racking up several allies at once (I'm using the No Power Points setting rule), it was also because my games are very miniatures-focused, and I don't want to be forced to use PROXIES if the player summons more allies than I have minis for.
(PCs, I can handle -- I get the character sheets ahead of time and can kitbash those. Monsters -- hey, I choose how many there are for an encounter anyway. But as soon as you give a player an open-ended "polymorph into any monster you can think of" or "summon as many allies as you want," it's going to be a mess to cover all the minis.  )
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xxlgeeklord
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Joined: 21 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that Summon Ally isn't a power in Sundered Skies, much less an allowed power to Weird Science.
As I recall, it has its own setting specific version of the Summon power; Summon Elemental for Weird Science I believe, which is much more limited than the full Summon Ally. Just adding that power in with no equivalent limitations is certainly likely to be unbalanced.
Oh, and if allowing him to summon SS ogres with their Glowmad ability, that's more powerful as well (since "normal" ogres represent the maximum for Seasoned Rank). |
Our GM allows us to use most Deluxe Powers if they make sense. Also, no, he's summoning regular fantasy ogres, which somehow are instakilling the Glowmad Ogres. He quite literally summoned an Ogre, it walked up to the Glowmad Ogre, and crushed it in a single hit. Fantasy Ogres do massive damage.
@CitizenKeen Yes, but that hardly ever happens as his ogres crush anything that even comes close.
@Jordan Peacock: Bot of those points are already in effect. Also being able to summon multiple allies is vastly more powerful than a single stronger ally. 2 ogres easily beat the crap out of an earth elemental (not other elementals for obvious reasons, but they're still stronger).There being 2 means 2 attacks, ganging up, and you have to kill 2 guys instead of one.
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VonDan
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:06 am Post subject: |
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To weaken the Summon Ally power a bit don't let a player order his summons into a suicidal action
Player: Go in there and fight the dragon while i run away with the gold
Summon: Say What!
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xxlgeeklord
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| VonDan wrote: | To weaken the Summon Ally power a bit don't let a player order his summons into a suicidal action
Player: Go in there and fight the dragon while i run away with the gold
Summon: Say What! |
Well he doesn't do that. He just orders them at stuff and stuff dies. He can literally summon an ogre right above someone, causing them to go squish, and then the ogre gets to attack anything else.
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cpk666
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| CitizenKeen wrote: | Are you making him roll to maintain them every time he's Shaken or Fatigued?
Because I just realized I wasn't. |
FYI - being damaged or Shaken doesn't disrupt maintained powers with Weird Science. See here. Fatigue doesn't disrupt powers for any AB unless the caster is Incapacitated, since he won't be able to maintain the power on his next turn.
CK
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Zadmar
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| xxlgeeklord wrote: | | He can literally summon an ogre right above someone, causing them to go squish, and then the ogre gets to attack anything else. |
I guess it would depend on trappings, but I wouldn't normally let someone summon a creature above an opponent's head - and if I did, I would treat falling as the ogre's action, the ogre would take falling damage, and the opponent would have the chance to dive for cover. |
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Clint
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:23 am Post subject: |
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| xxlgeeklord wrote: | | Our GM allows us to use most Deluxe Powers if they make sense. |
Kind of my point, it doesn't make sense given the setting. The power to summon and what exactly can be summoned is already covered in the book; allowing the ability to summon other things doesn't really make sense. Heck, the fact you say below he's summoning "regular fantasy ogres" means it makes even less sense in Sundered Skies as he's "summoning" something that doesn't even exist in the setting.
It sounds like the GM might be "kitchen sinking" the setting (allowing anything to be used in it), and yeah, that's inevitably going to lead to some imbalance. Typically, once noticed, that's the point to make adjustments.
Savage Worlds isn't a "universal" system; it's a core system. Settings are designed to be balanced internally, not with the paradigm that other rules, powers, Edges, etc. can be thrown in with no impact on balance. It's possible those things can be used, but the GM has to seriously consider their effect and the player should be willing to accept alterations or even removal if necessary.
| xxlgeeklord wrote: | | Also, no, he's summoning regular fantasy ogres, which somehow are instakilling the Glowmad Ogres. He quite literally summoned an Ogre, it walked up to the Glowmad Ogre, and crushed it in a single hit. Fantasy Ogres do massive damage. |
Um, they have the exact same stats except for the Glowmad ogres having a slightly better weapon and as mentioned, the Glowmad ability, which gives them nearly the benefits of Berserk but without rolling to activate.
Of course, it's Savage Worlds, so the above is possible, but it's not likely to occur. Comparatively, the Glowmad ogre has the same chance to hit, but does +2 damage more than the "regular" one. Those ogres should have a slight advantage in combats.
| Zadmar wrote: | | xxlgeeklord wrote: | | He can literally summon an ogre right above someone, causing them to go squish, and then the ogre gets to attack anything else. |
I guess it would depend on trappings, but I wouldn't normally let someone summon a creature above an opponent's head - and if I did, I would treat falling as the ogre's action, the ogre would take falling damage, and the opponent would have the chance to dive for cover. |
Yeah, definitely. Letting it be summoned in mid-air with a teleport trapping, sure, but if he wants to do damage from falling on a target, then the ogre has to be high enough to face falling damage itself, and the target gets a basic Agility roll to get out of the way where the ogre automatically takes the damage.
Heck, I might even allow some options in that case based on throwing it back or throwing yourself on a grenade. Instead of just rolling to get out of the way, the target could make an Agility at -4 (-2 if on Hold) and set a melee weapon in hand at the spot the ogre will hit (adding the weapon's damage to the falling damage), or the target not try and get out of the way at all, setting his weapon to add to the ogre's damage while they take the damage of being hit normally.
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CitizenKeen
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Clint wrote: | | Savage Worlds isn't a "universal" system; it's a core system. Settings are designed to be balanced internally, not with the paradigm that other rules, powers, Edges, etc. can be thrown in with no impact on balance. It's possible those things can be used, but the GM has to seriously consider their effect and the player should be willing to accept alterations or even removal if necessary. |
Thank you for putting into words what I've been slowly realizing. I will be forwarding this to my players. |
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xxlgeeklord
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:44 am Post subject: |
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Quite honestly I can't see why the Summon Ally would be so much more powerful in the Sundered Skies setting than in a regular fantasy setting. My GM is allowing this power to be used, though he may take it back later. Seeing as the player in question is now going to pretty much base his entire character around the Summon Ally Power it'd pretty much ruin it for him to disallow the Power now, probably.
From what I hear Summon Ally is simply incredibly powerful, and there are no weaknesses or whatever I am missing. Thank you for your help, and I will try to find some way to beef up the other characters so they can match with the Weird Scientist.
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R˙che
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| xxlgeeklord wrote: | | Quite honestly I can't see why the Summon Ally would be so much more powerful in the Sundered Skies setting than in a regular fantasy setting. My GM is allowing this power to be used, though he may take it back later. Seeing as the player in question is now going to pretty much base his entire character around the Summon Ally Power it'd pretty much ruin it for him to disallow the Power now, probably. |
In a normal fantasy game, I don't believe that Weird Science would allow for summon ally. Other AB's have to worry about disruption and maintaining powers when they summon an ally so that starts to impose some penalties. Also, they have only one pool of PP, so a 5 PP spell adds up, instead of each item having its own set of PP. So a mage with 20 PP has that for all his spells, where as a Weird Scientist has 20 per item.
Personally if I was going to shoot a quarter of my PP on one spell, it better be good.
I would suggest that your group looks at the Deluxe Conversion rules for Sunder Skies, it might help with some of this. They should be on TAG's website for free download.
In the end it boils down to that in Sundered Skies, the designer put in three spells to cover summon ally, none of which allows summoning more than one creature at a time (if I am not mistaken). So, to equalize the artificer may summon one elemental, if he wants two, he needs to take the power a second time and build a second device. To me that limits the power and fits the settings.
As Clint pointed out adding more powers or changing them may open other issues with the setting.
If your concern is summon ally in general is too powerful, that's a different topic. That then becomes an issue of having a GM that makes it balanced for his world, via trappings or other requirements.
Typically in my games its not an issue since there are enough extras to handle the extra combatants, but also, the NPCs use it as well so in the end it balances out. |
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Clint
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| xxlgeeklord wrote: | Quite honestly I can't see why the Summon Ally would be so much more powerful in the Sundered Skies setting than in a regular fantasy setting. My GM is allowing this power to be used, though he may take it back later. Seeing as the player in question is now going to pretty much base his entire character around the Summon Ally Power it'd pretty much ruin it for him to disallow the Power now, probably.
From what I hear Summon Ally is simply incredibly powerful, and there are no weaknesses or whatever I am missing. |
Depends. Is everything that was mentioned being applied in game?
Heck, let's start with the big one you said in the beginning, do enemies target the device that summoned the ogres?
Seems like in most cases that would tons easier than taking out the ogres and the clearly obvious way to end their threat. Especially if the device is used to summon "hordes of minions" as it only takes negating the one device to negate all of the minions.
That weakness is one of the main reasons Weird Science has separate PPs and doesn't have maintenance worries.
Quick idea; divide the number of combats the device has been used by the number of times the character has had to fix or rebuild the device because a foe damaged it. If that number is greater than 3 or is in fact impossible because it would mean dividing by 0, then the primary reason for Summon Ally being "incredibly powerful" is right there.
Well, that and the whole "free unavoidable extra 'squish' attack that doesn't harm the ogre and isn't part of the power as written."
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xxlgeeklord
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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H never actually summons an Ogre over someone's head. Also, yes, no enemy has ever aimed for the device. No enemy as of yet has been able to get close enough. However I will inform the GM.
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ogbendog
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Summon Ally overpowered |
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| xxlgeeklord wrote: | | ... the device (it's a teleporter he keeps on his back, and he's a melee warrior).. |
The device is a teleporter. So it brings them, but how does it control them? If I were an ogre and teleported into a fight, and somoene ordered me to attack, I might smack the puny human who ordered me around. |
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CitizenKeen
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:58 pm Post subject: Re: Summon Ally overpowered |
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| ogbendog wrote: | | The device is a teleporter. So it brings them, but how does it control them? If I were an ogre and teleported into a fight, and somoene ordered me to attack, I might smack the puny human who ordered me around. |
Damn, ogbendog, that's cold. |
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cpk666
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Summon Ally overpowered |
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| CitizenKeen wrote: | | ogbendog wrote: | | The device is a teleporter. So it brings them, but how does it control them? If I were an ogre and teleported into a fight, and somoene ordered me to attack, I might smack the puny human who ordered me around. |
Damn, ogbendog, that's cold. |
And also a total nerf. The power specifically states that it "allows the character to summon a loyal and obedient servant."
Really, the power doesn't needed to be nerfed. It is the same as with Blast. Whoever is causing the most "damage" on the battlefield is the person who gets targeted. Which means the weird scientist and/or his summoning device are going to be taking a lot of damage.
CK
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CitizenKeen
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Summon Ally overpowered |
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| cpk666 wrote: | | And also a total nerf. The power specifically states that it "allows the character to summon a loyal and obedient servant." |
Absolutely. I think ogbendog's point was that how is the player using a teleportation trapping also incorporating obedience, not that the power doesn't necessarily justify it. Trapping's can limit powers as well as enhance them. |
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ogbendog
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| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:26 pm Post subject: |
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Particularly if you are using a power not ordinarily allowed, it would be reasonable to have the trappings change things.
Gadgeteering is very prone to this. If you have Smite as a "energy sword", you can't cast it on any other weapon you or an ally has. This does weaken the power, but that's the way it is. I don't think it's common to beef up Smite to compensate.
If you had Summon Ally as a device which, say, animated rocks into an elemental, and the device were destroyed, could be the rocks turn back into rocks. In this case, a teleporter, it wouldn't end the effect, the critter would still be there.
But if you explicitly said it teleported them in and controlled them, then destroying the device would release that control.
what happens when the spell ends, not maintained or disrupted? Maybe that's when the control ends. Shoot, that's not bad, you could drop an ogre behind enemy lines and not control it. Odds are it'll still smack that bad guys around, and you aren't paying maintenance cost for it. |
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