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Savage Space completed
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Chaosmeister
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good luck with your project but what you are doing does not really fit with the Savage Space base I have established. I suggest you create your completely own PDF and open a new thread for it. If you want to reference Savage Space that is fine of course but as I said your material is way off from what I tried to do.
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chadhale
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay, my own document and reference Savage space (does this mean I need to re-state your credits in my effort? I think so because you had asked for permision to use materials created by others).
okay, I see your point. I'll get to work on it.

I need to ask you if it is okay, for me to use your method of creating a space ship as a character.


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Chaosmeister
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can refer to my rules but please do not copy the text. You can write it as an expansion.

What you are trying to do sounds interesting, looking forward to it. If you have any question it would be best if you contacted me via email through my website.
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steelbrok
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaosmeister wrote:

If you have read High Space I would love to hear your impressions and comparisons to Savage Space.


I think that Savage and High Psace are at different levels. SS is orientated towards a Firefly scale whereas HS seems to be Star Trek plus.

A problem with Ships as Characters in SS is that it lost its way in keeping a constant scale for weapons/damage with normal vehicles and weapons (and to be honest I think I should take a fair bit of the blame for that).

HS starship weapons don't relate to normal vehicle weapons either but because of their scaling you can't really expect them to. HS ships and weapons are faster than light in combat, fire one of these at a ground target and you'll be blowing whole cities (possibly even countries) off the map. Worrying about mundane armour and wounds becomes irrelevant.

SS seems generally better for a slightly gritty, lower powered campaign, HS for mighty starships sweeping across the galaxy (though I do think they need to look at the FTL times again) and I think their using new Traits for their Ships as Characters system was, in retrospect, the best way to go. I would personally have preferred less powerful weapons that could be integrated with existing weapons and ground vehicles.
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steelbrok
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelbrok wrote:

A problem with Ships as Characters in SS is that it lost its way in keeping a constant scale for weapons/damage with normal vehicles and weapons


The best solution I've beeen able to come up with for this (and I can see flaws with it) is:

Heavy weapon at Starship has no AP and only rolls a single damage dice.

Spaceship firing at person/vehicle ignores all armour, only rolls a single damage dice but the result is the number of wounds inflicted rather than damage.


Last edited by steelbrok on Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:18 am; edited 2 times in total
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Chaosmeister
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mate,

thank you for this, I appreciate it. Don`t fret it oo much, I am the one who wrote the rules in the end. I am still relatively happy with many parts of it but not all yet. I think your solution is a good one. Personally I am gravitating to the Starship Weapon / Starship Armor designation that was discussed up thread.

Your perception of scale is good, that is something I may need to revisit to "open up" the scale a bit.
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Vinzent
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the hazards of outer space such as radiation and micrometeorites, a starship would have to be incredibly tough. That's why I'm using a new scale higher than heavy - Mega. Mega is to Heavy as Heavy is to standard damage. Ostensibly this would be due to energy shields, but it could apply to hull armor given the issues I mentoned above.
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jonrog1
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I think trying to keep the damage scale constant across such wide ranges, and keep it FFF, is a fool's errand. I dig what you did to compensate.
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Chaosmeister
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you jonrog1. There are many ideas floating around atm and I am confident I can do better. I would love to get at least vehicles like tanks and mechs in.
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steelbrok
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vinzent wrote:
Given the hazards of outer space such as radiation and micrometeorites, a starship would have to be incredibly tough. That's why I'm using a new scale higher than heavy - Mega. Mega is to Heavy as Heavy is to standard damage. Ostensibly this would be due to energy shields, but it could apply to hull armor given the issues I mentoned above.


That may well be the way to go. It handles vehicles firing at ships but what about ships firing at vehicles?


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kronovan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a scale above Heavy Armor is doable - Mega is as good a word as any. As to them attacking vehicles, in my thinking atmospheric ships would only be Heavy Armor and not Mega, so HW armed vehicles could possibly damage them.
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Vinzent
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A mega- scale weapon would ignore Heavy armor.

If you look at the progression of technologies in Savage Worlds, Armor gets exponentially better as does the Armor Piercing of the weapons to a point where a WWI tank has little hope againt an M1 Abrams. Now you have a choice, just keep increasing the Armor Value and AP, or switch to a new scale like Mega.

So futuristic tanks and Aircraft using sci fi armor or shields in my games will use Mega Armor, meaning ancient ballistic tech just won't hurt them. You have to have pasma guns and particle projection cannons that deal Mega just to damage them.

So what about starships versus capital ships?

In general, I prefer DTSL's rules that capital ships are obstacle's to be avoided. However, if you really want to run a flight of X-Wings against a Star Destroyer, I recommend the following...

Attacking a Capital Ship is like attacking a city. There is no one location that a fighter can shoot that will magically blow up a capital ship (the reactor should be so shielded inside the capital ship that the little fighter blasts won't reach it).

So the fighters will have to target specific systems on board the capital ship. They could try to take out its canons one at a time but with batteries firing at the fighters it would seem like a suicide mission (and it should). They could attack the engines or shield generators. In short the fighters should be used to weaken a capital ship so that another capital ship could blow the Smeg out of it.
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steelbrok
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you seen DTSL's recent Starships supplement? They've included battleships and carriers. In their freebie follow up supplement on fighters they introduce the interesting idea of fighters working as swarms.
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steelbrok
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kronovan wrote:
I think a scale above Heavy Armor is doable - Mega is as good a word as any. As to them attacking vehicles, in my thinking atmospheric ships would only be Heavy Armor and not Mega, so HW armed vehicles could possibly damage them.


If you had a setting where spaceships stayed in space then the problem nicely goes away. Maybe the hyperdrive is sensitive to gravity fields or something. You then have a good excuse for cool beanstalks on your major worlds.

You would still have some interface vehicles though, fighters, shuttles, cargo pods. These would be your less well armoured spaceships and less likeley to be used for long range (and hence higher velocity) travel.

Make these interface vehicles HW instead of Mega as you say with one proviso:

A fighter is HW, a fighter swarm is Mega.
Called shots (-6 IIRC) would still bypass armour and hence be how the lone farmboy/pilot can take on the Deadly Sun
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Chaosmeister
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is also a solution. Atmospheric ships are a must have for me though. I think the "mega" damage and armor approach would work. Tanks would be Heavy Armor only but they could have weapons classified as Mega and as such can damage Ships.

Regarding Capital ships, I read an interesting blog post a while ago about huge epic monsters in SW. The author proposed to treat different parts of the beast as single NPC in a way. So the Monster torso and head could be the wildcard while each of its tentacles would be an extra. I would construct a huge battleship the same way. The core is damn tough as a wildcard but other parts like batteries would be extras.
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chadhale
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

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chadhale
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

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chadhale
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

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steelbrok
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaosmeister wrote:
That is also a solution. Atmospheric ships are a must have for me though. I think the "mega" damage and armor approach would work. Tanks would be Heavy Armor only but they could have weapons classified as Mega and as such can damage Ships.



I think the issue of normal heavy weapons attacking starships is the easier part to solve, and the mega system proposed is certainly one that would work for that.

I'm not sure it's so easy when it comes to mega weapons attacing heavy vehicles or even worse non-heavy vehicles or personnel. Maybe giving weapons a burst template or increasing the size of their burst template would work

If you keep starship weapons at a manageable number of dice (in the recent DTSL spaceships product smaller weapons are in the 2 to 3 d6 range), firing these at a modern tank is going to be innefective unless there is some mechanism to boost their performance versus normal/heavy targets.

I had wondered whether rolling the dice normally and adding the weapons maximum damage when firing at non-starships would work but I'm not convinced by it
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Chaosmeister
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm You are right, the toughness values of modern tanks even without any armor is hard to crack if we say Starship weapons ignore armor up to heavy. I wager double damage is necessary to even approach the effect I have in mind. Grrr keeping the numbers small is difficult without destroying interoperability.

One other possibility would be to have a size range that includes the vehicles and the star ships alike where the bigger one gets Damage Bonus based on size. Say a Tank is size 0, a STR D4 size 2 would get +8 Dam against the tank, a STR D6 Ship would be size 3 and get 12 bonus damage. Something like that? Of course that can lead to the problem that the Huge Destroyer Str D12+1 Size 7 would get a bonus of 28 Damage against the Tank and still 16 against the size 3 ship... If I halve the bonus to +2 the size 3 ship would have a +6 Damage against the Tank only. Would that be sufficient? The Size 7 would only have 8 bonus damage against the d6 ship. Difficult problem for me, I suck at math.
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