Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[heinzy57]

In an effort to stem the inevitable "It depends" responses that this thread will receive, I'd like to open by stating that I understand that characters and games are different. I also understand that the Combat Rating system in SWD is supposed to serve as guidance, not a hard and fast rule. With all of that said...

I anticipate having a difficult time challenging my players in the new game I will be running. I expect this to occur because of my inexperience with the system and their penchance to optimize and min/max their characters. I want to challenge them without accidentally wiping out the whole party by throwing too much at them. I also don't want to bore them by sloshing them through needlessly easy encounters. To complicate matters, I'll have between 4 and 7 party members with little more than a days notice. I am hopeful that the Combat Rating system in SWD will help with this and I'm sure that after going through a few encounters, I'll be able to scale encounters to the character power level in my game.

All that said, I'd like to apprioriately challenge my players right out of the gate. My question is what would the expected Combat Rating be for a Novice ranked fantasy setting character? Based on my quick calculations, a "balanced" fantasy party (face, fighter, mage, priest, rogue) using the Archetypes in SWD has a CR of about 45, or 9/character. Fighters are higher, mages are lower. Does this seem appropriate? If the first encounter I plan for my party has a CR of somewhere around 45, will they be moderately challenged? Or will the walk through it, which I can live with? Or will they be wiped out, which would be tough to get over? And how do I handle another unknown player being thrown into the mix?

Looking forward to the repsonse.

- Kevin

[amerigoV]

"It depends..." ha, had to say it. I have not tried the SWD method and it really was just thrown in there to help the D&Ders transition (IMO).

Here is my advice running fantasy - do not worry about making it challenging - worry about making it interesting. There is enough swing in the system that some "tough" encounters they are going to cakewalk through. Then there will be some minor encounter (in your plot) that just kicks their tail.

Focus on your story, make the boss encounters interesting (not just a combat grind, but setting/macguffin/roleplay/etc) and you will be fine. Use the encounters to tell the story, not just an appropriate CR (cuz XP is not based on defeating monsters in this system).
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I call Shinanigans!

[ValhallaGH]

Characters are difficult to optimize in Savage Worlds. Why? Because the tactics actually used in the fight are vastly more important than the traits and edges chosen.

The characters that use cover, ranged attacks, Wild Attack, gang up, disarm, and called shots skillfully will crush their foes (unless the dice completely disagree).


Challenging Savage Worlds player characters isn't a matter of numbers, though they help (2 extras / hero is easy, 3 / hero is tough, 4 / hero is extremely difficult, 5+ / hero is fatal). It's a matter of tactics and planning. The potential +8 attack bonus (against a potential -4 Parry) means that each attacker has an effective +12 to hit Parry - there is no character optimization that helps against that.
*+8 = +4 Gang Up (four allies helping attack) + 2 Wild Attack + 2 Unarmed Defender bonus (because someone disarmed the hero).
*-4 Parry = -2 from a successful Trick -2 Prone (because someone hit the leg and tripped the hero).
For shooting, Aiming does wonders (+2 versus the shooting TN of 4). Firing in volleys is great (Group 1 aims while Group 2 shoots, and vice versa).

Best of luck.
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"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

[Virgobrown72]

Unlike D&...er, the fantasy game that will no be named ...Savage Worlds encounters aren't USUALLY scaled to the characters. That being said, there is nothing wrong with having plenty of mooks to plow thru (which can be highly cinematic ), or having to run away from a Big Bad, just to revise your tactics. Just keep the encounters cool, broadstroke it, and remind the players this isn't the other game, which pushes more for blast through this encounter or fail, loot the bodies, wash, rinse, repeat...
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"Anything smaller is just fiddly, and fiddly is not one of SvgW's three Fs..."

[FoxBlue]

I understand the concern. Generally I've come to just throw what makes sense in the narrative at the party. Coming from that one fantasy game, it's actually very refreshing to not have to twist the narrative so that it includes encounters of the correct difficulty.

Your players min/maxing shouldn't cause too much trouble. What I'd consider an "optimized" novice build in SW is an all rounder that has lots of options and room for growth. ... Otherwise it turns into a game of rock paper scissors where the character has a glaring weakness that can, and often will, be taken advantage of. Not that that's a bad thing, I just wouldn't consider it optimized.

You'll get the hang of things pretty quickly I think.
And good luck with your game!

Drew.

[Cryonic]

not sure why it is constantly referred to as the "game that will not be named"... what? Is it like Voldemort? Anyways... I've played D&D for quite a long number of years and the only version of it that I've played that specifically is kill the monsters to gain XP is 2nd Ed. 3rd Ed and later has lots of ways to gain XP that don't involve combat. In fact sneaking past those guards/henchmen/encounter is supposed to earn the party XP as if they had killed all the monsters. The problem is more from a GM/Player standpoint for 3E and later.
Having also played GURPS, Shadowrun, Star Wars D6, and now Savage Worlds, I think I prefer the method of XP based on just how the session went and not based on anything else. PCs did well (found the macguffin, chatted up the NPCs, made new friends, etc...) decent XP for the night, Players goofed off, reduced XP...

[Lord Inar]

I'll chime in that Showdown is your friend. http://peginc.com/games.html#Showdown

For a straight up balanced combat encounter, why not use the points from Showdown?

Sure it might not be perfectly balanced, but chances are good that it's pretty close.

The main thing is to ignore abilities that may have a point cost, but won't be relevant to a scenario (such as Ace or Amphibious)

There are several Showdown builders (including mine) over at Savagepedia which go a long way to making customized points for characters, and also there is the "deconstructed" point list in the Showdown section of these forums.

- Marc
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Lord Inar
Sherwood and Gaslight
Rocky Mountain Savages
SharkBytes

[Clint]

Well, if you have little more than a day's notice, that still seems like plenty of time. Heck, it doesn't seem hard even is someone shows up at the last minute.

Consider, the encounter likely consists of one or maybe two Wild Cards and then a group of Extras (maybe two again). The Extras are going to have the same stats and the same Combat Rating, so even if at the last minute, all you need to do is adjust the number of Extras to equal the PCs overall Combat Rating.

For instance, Orc Chieftan has a CR of 17 and the Orc Extras have a CR of 6.

Players hand in their character sheets for review and their CRs are quickly calculated to be: 8, 9, 7, 11, and 10 for 45 total. Take 45 and subtract the Orc leader's 17 for 28. Divide the 28 by 6 for the Orc Extras' cost and 4 should be easier, 5 a good challenge, and 6 or more is going to get very tough.

If another player shows up with a character with an 8 CR, then you divide by 36 and 6 Orc Extras becomes a moderate challenge and 5 is easier.

Also keep in mind that as GM you can adjust the threat of a combat in mid-play by how you give out Bennies. Give out more and the fight gets easier for the players; be more stingy and it gets dangerous.

Hope that helps.
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Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com

[Virgobrown72]