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HoE questions about reloaded conversions.

 
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rungok
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Joined: 09 May 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 7:56 pm    Post subject: HoE questions about reloaded conversions. Reply with quote

So my Marshall decided he really liked the Savage worlds system.
So much so that he converted all his games over to reloaded.

This makes me sad face, as that I havent found any information for Hell on Earth. We have been playing a game that switches between our weird west characters and our HoE guys.

While I like some of the aspects of reloaded, I am not happy cause he says when we convert our HoE guys to reloaded, I have to make my Junker as a mad scientist.

I'm sure everyone who has seen the difference between the two knows that this is not cool. Junkers are in many ways different than Mad Scientists.

Anyone have a conversion for Junkers?
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weird Science in the Core Rules. Fewer power points than Mad Science, but no dementia.

Same flexibility, similar game mechanics, but no truckin' with demons.
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ScooterinAB
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Joined: 22 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya. Junkers are not Mad Scientists. Period.

Unfortunately, I don't have a stable set of rules. What I do though, is have a simplified concept for Junkers. The size of a device is based on its effectiveness. It's tricky to explain, but a Junker trades off different features of a power to make a device more unique. These features could be related to the power itself (like a faster car, or a more lethal gun), or can take other forms (like how a powerjack takes up less space than a battery, or trading off performance for a larger spirit battery). This also allows a Junker to build multiple power devices (trading off performance of one power in order to include another).

The concept is very experimental, and required the Marshal to basically say how big something is, and if the Junker can build it.

I'm doing this because I like the flexibility that Junkers have, and am trying to reconcile it with the speed and ease of SW. Unfortunately, I have put all of this on the backburner for now. I want to see how PEG handles them before I invest a huge amount of time into something that probably won't work.
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Sitting Duck
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Invention Rules from Space 1889: Red Sands could be a decent framework to create a Savage junker.
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScooterinAB wrote:
This also allows a Junker to build multiple power devices (trading off performance of one power in order to include another).

You can already do this in the rules via Trappings.

Example: Junker Power Armor
The first step is either the armor or the strength-enhancing exoskeleton (depends upon the Junker).
This is either an always-on armor effect or a boost strength (which may or may not be always on, depending on trappings). Balance it by making all powers invest into this for a while.
Next up is the other base component.
Environmental sealing is common and really beneficial - environmental protection, and leave the Drain. This can be systems over heating, needing to recharge, user discomfort, or anything else that makes sense for the individual suit of armor.
Then there are the sensors - detect arcana, with a funny sensor type (heart beat, infrared, etc) that provides a fairly substantial limitation to compensate for being nearly continuous.
Weapons are covered with the various attack powers (bolt, burst, or blast), and you can treat their Power Points as ammo or Drain.
Movement effects are simulated with the various powers (speed, wall crawling, and flight).
AI support (or combat drug injectors) can be covered via the quickness power.

One device with a lot of powers worked into it. This is the sort of thing that only an extremely experienced Junker should be able to put together. And with a minimum of six powers, he's at least Seasoned.


Where you actually need a few rules is the Junkers that leave their toys strewn in their wake. For this kind of Junker, I'd create an edge similar to the DL:R Eureka!, where the device has a built-in G-Ray collector (or uses real bullets, or spook juice, or whatever). Being able to equip the entire posse, and the townies your Templar buddy recruited, with lightning blasters is a major advantage.
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ScooterinAB
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Joined: 22 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, but I really disagree. Trapping are not a substitute for Junker magic, and do not well represent it.

Being a Junker is not about having a few devices that work well. It is about having a whole bunch or unstable items that can be built as needed. Advancement based rules also do not reflect equipment based rules well. The rules also do not cover devices with multiple bulding powers; only multiple devices through spending all of your edges on powers.

Trappings also leave out the variety and uniqueness of Junker devices. Using the example of a gun, not all Junker guns are the same. The damage range with Bolt is too limited to represent even rifle damage. Looking at armor, a SW Junker can not build different kinds of armor. He is limited to one level of protection. I wont even get into how some Junker devices dont require power, but would in SW.

Lastly, as mentioned by myself and the OP, junkers are not Mad Scientists. Even ifrules For Junkers build from the same foundation, they need to be different than Mads. Just like how Template are not just Blessed with swords, Junkers need to be at least passingly different than Mads.uniqueness of Junker devices. Using the example of a gun, not all Junker guns are the same. The damage range with Bolt is too limited to represent even rifle damage. Looking at armor, a SW Junker can not build different kinds of armor. He is limited to one level of protection. I wont even get into how some Junker devices dont require power, but would in SW.

Lastly, as mentioned by myself and the OP, junkers are not Mad Scientists. Even ifrules For Junkers build from the same foundation, they need to be different than Mads. Just like how Template are not just Blessed with swords, Junkers need to be at least passingly different than Mads.
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScooterinAB wrote:
Lastly, as mentioned by myself and the OP, junkers are not Mad Scientists.

I said to not use the Mad Science rules. Instead, use the Arcane Background (Weird Science) from the core rules. It is not Mad Science, though it is related. Mad Science is the Arcane Background (Mad Science) in Deadlands Reloaded, and it is completely inappropriate for Junkers.




There are four basic approaches to doing Junkers in Savage Worlds.
Option Alpha: Weird Science. You'll have to get liberal with a few of the trappings, but that's kosher in Savage Worlds.
Junker Gatling shotgun? Use a modified bolt power - 3d6, 2d6, or 1d6 damage, range of 12/24/48, +2 to Shooting, Automatic Fire only, and a 1 on the Shooting die makes interesting things happen (LBT Suppressive fire centered on the shooter; explosions; demon summoning; whatever).
Junker Rail "Rifle"? Another modified bolt power - 2d8, range of 24/48/96, AP 2, Single, "overcharge" for another 6 AP, and a 1 on the Shooting die makes interesting things happen.
Marvelous Marv's Marvelous Motorcycle? A modification of the speed power - Toughness 8, ACC/TS 20/40, uses one Drain per hour of use, internal Ghost Rock Reactor recharges one Drain per hour of non-use. Interesting things happen when you roll a 1 on Driving.
Improvisation handled by the Gadgeteer professional edge.
(Yes, I am partial to option Alpha - it's the most minimalist option, and I prefer minimalist rules design.)

Option Beta: Modify an existing AB. Options include a balanced way to add Gadgeteer to the core Weird Science, a device-based AB (Superpowers), Devices from the Super Powers Companion, or a really extensive rewrite of AB (Magic, Miracles, Psionics).

Option Gamma: Junkers just make stuff. Screw rules, leave it all to Marshal adjudication.

Option Delta: A completely new arcane background, with no mechanical similarities to any existing AB. I have neither seen nor heard of anything like this being done, though I've heard it proposed before.
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ScooterinAB
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Joined: 22 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I prefer the last option. The device rules from Superheroes/Necessary Evil might work as a basis though (I'm just not as familiar with them, as I don't own either book).

In my mind, the only Arcane Backgrounds that should overlap between settings are ones like Martial Arts or Shamanism. Other AB's should be different enough to be unique.

Simplicity is obviously the key, which is why I am having trouble converting the JMC rules to SW. I have a simplified framework, but it needs too much playtesting and fiddling to be worth it, considering the official book will be out within the year.
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