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Porting from Dragon Warriors to Savage Worlds
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Lord Karick
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Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Landsberg, Germany

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Planecreek wrote:

But yes, armour is still helpful in SW, I just think it should be a point or 2 more than it is - especially compared to creature armour.


How about this (and feel free to comment anyone who thinks I'm completely barking up the wrong tree):

ARMOUR
Wearing armour comes at a penalty. Although it offers significant protection, it also hampers the person wearing it. The following armour table indicates the type of armour (Type), the amount of protection it offers (Toughness Bonus), the weight (Wgt.), encumbrance level (Enc.) and any special effects. Armour Encumbrance is like standard encumbrance, affecting all Strength and Agility related Skills as well as Pace and Parry.

Armour descriptions can be taken from Wayne Imlach’s “Expanded Armour”.

Type / Toughness / Wgt. (lbs) / Enc. Level / Effect

None / +0 / 0 / 0 / -
Soft Leather / +1 / 15 / 0 / -
Hard Leather, Chain Vest / +2 / 20 / 1 / -
Mail Hauberk / +3 / 25 / 1 / -
Mail Armour / +4 / 40 / 2 / -
Plate Armour / +5 / 50 / 2 / Wearer gains 'Hardy' bonus vs. piercing or slashing weapons

EDGES
Armour Proficiency
Requirements: Novice, Fighting d6, Agility d6, Strength d8
The character is used to wearing heavy armour and thus ignores one point of Armour Encumbrance.

Improved Armour Proficiency
Requirements: Seasoned, Armour Proficiency
The character is used to wearing heavy armour and thus ignores two points of Armour Encumbrance.
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 6400

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Karick wrote:
Armour Encumbrance is like standard encumbrance, affecting all Strength and Agility related Skills as well as Pace and Parry.


So heavy armor hoses you four ways now? Armor Encumbrance, weight for actual encumbrance, a penalty to Pace, and a penalty to Parry. Yeah, you've just made armor into a "Shoot Me, Please" sign.


Try the rules as written before you start changing them. See what problems you're encountering, and then we can help you get the results you want.

Example: If Planecreek were to say to me, "Armor doesn't feel useful enough for it's cost and drawbacks."
Then I would reply, "Try a flat increase of +1 to all armor bonuses; Leather is +2, Chain is +3, and Plate is +4. This means that a regular soldier (SWEX pg. 99) in Chain has a Toughness of 8 (3), making him very difficult to wound with a short sword. And a veteran cavalryman in Plate would have a toughness of 10 (4), making him very tough against anything short of a lance charge (2d8, AP 2; average 10, AP 2) and tough against that.
"The drawback is that now your PCs are having to hit those same kinds of high toughness scores. A dagger or rapier is essentially useless, since the average 6 damage (from 2d4) can't hurt a peasant in stiff leather (Toughness 7). Called shots, high damage weapons, hitting with raises, and AP are going to be incredibly common among PCs for the simple reason that they will need those advantages. The long term effect will be that Combat PCs will be even tougher and non-Combat PCs will be even more useless if they choose to fight."
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Zadmar
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Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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Location: Munich

PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2011 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Karick wrote:
How about this (and feel free to comment anyone who thinks I'm completely barking up the wrong tree):

Interesting - I've been considering doing something similar, inspired by Clint's Pecs & Pulchritude. In P&P you suffer a parry penalty equal to your armour bonus, but I ran that through a combat simulator and found that parry had a significant advantage - so I changed it to work like this:

Light armour: +2* armour and -1 parry.
Medium armour: +4* armour and -2 parry.
Heavy armour: +6* armour and -3 parry.

* Armour is halved if the attacker hits with a raise.

I ran tens of thousands of simulated fights, and the above seems to be fairly balanced for melee.

Of course it breaks down when you factor in ranged combat, because parry doesn't help against an archer but armour does. But reducing Pace could address that - perhaps light armour reduces your running die by 1, while medium and heavy armour reduce your pace by 1 and 2 respectively.

The Fantasy Companion rates Hardy as a +3 racial ability - the same as a free Seasoned edge. And Block is a Seasoned edge that increases your parry by +1. So I think you could reasonably balance Hardy against another -1 parry penalty, particularly if you said that it only applied to Rigid armour (which bludgeoning weapons often get +2 AP against). Note that I'm also working on a related system for balancing weapons, so I don't envision everyone using a bludgeoning weapon.

Then your Dragon Warriors hardened leather could be light rigid armour, while the ringmail could be medium, the chainmail heavy, and the platemail heavy rigid.

My proposal had an Armour Proficiency edge similar to yours, which would reduce the parry penalty by 1, although mine doesn't allow the penalty to be negated completely (if you're wearing armour, you always have at least -1 parry). You could have the other edge only negate the penalty for rigid armour.

Another issue is that you can wear partial armour. My initial thoughts were these could apply their own penalties, as follows:

Head: -1/-2/-3 to notice rolls (hearing-only if it doesn't cover the face).
Legs: -1/-2/-3 to running rolls.
Arms: -1/-2/-3 to activities requiring manual dexterity (eg juggling, lockpicking, etc).

This would give knights a valid reason for having their visor up, or even removing their helmet completely, while exploring a dungeon.
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Planecreek
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Joined: 28 Apr 2011
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How about this (and feel free to comment anyone who thinks I'm completely barking up the wrong tree):



the armour seems a bit too encumbering. Maybe just a -1 encumberance for plate, with the edge to get rid of it. That should bring the DW flavour (knights wear the heaviest armour and others aren't used to it) without trying to bring all the rules over.

Also - the mail vest, hauberk and full armour - I would say should be the same rating - just some are easier to pass with called shots.

The +1 ValhallaKG suggested is worth considering.



Quote:
If Planecreek were to say to me, "Armor doesn't feel useful enough for it's cost and drawbacks."

I'd say more "it is inconsistent with how creature armour is rated, and it doesn't quite capture the protectiveness of armour as I see it" - it is still useful if it does not encumber you.

Quote:
Try a flat increase of +1 to all armor bonuses

Trialling this, and it does seem better

Quote:
A dagger or rapier is essentially useless, since the average 6 damage (from 2d4) can't hurt a peasant in stiff leather (Toughness 7).

Shouldn't that usually be d6+d4? Low strength limits weapon die, but not the reverse? That would mean an average hit would shake with a dagger, raise to remove/wound - that seems reasonable.

Also the shortsword vs mail (2d6 vs 8) would be the same.

The lance would add +4 for a decent charge and the plate wearer is in trouble.

If you add +2 for wild attacks, as well as raises and aces - the weapons seem still deadly enough. If anything the armour still seems a little weak as I see it - but the +1 brings it much closer.

Quote:
The long term effect will be that Combat PCs will be even tougher and non-Combat PCs will be even more useless if they choose to fight

Can see the concern, but in this setting should be okay, and if the characters are translated from DW, they should all have combat ability.
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Lord Karick
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Joined: 25 Mar 2011
Posts: 412
Location: Landsberg, Germany

PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ValhallaGH wrote:
So heavy armor hoses you four ways now? Armor Encumbrance, weight for actual encumbrance, a penalty to Pace, and a penalty to Parry. Yeah, you've just made armor into a "Shoot Me, Please" sign.

And I haven't even started on the 'getting up from prone' rule Twisted Evil

But seriously guys, I'm extremely grateful for all the input. Valhalla, on the one hand you're right, trying to fix something that might not be a problem might seek a bit borked, but on the other hand, I'd rather get it right from the get go and not have to tinker as I go.

For what it's worth, I do think that medieval armour realistically had this effect - it was cumbersome and brought huge disadvantages along with it, which is why it eventually disappeared from the scene when it became more important to be able to dodge effectively than it was to soak up the damage once gunpowder came along. But most settings stop before then...

Give me a couple of days to process all Sir Pc's stuff and I'll get back to you.
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ValhallaGH
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Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue May 03, 2011 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lord Karick wrote:
But seriously guys, I'm extremely grateful for all the input.

You're welcome. Very Happy
Lord Karick wrote:
For what it's worth, I do think that medieval armour realistically had this effect - it was cumbersome and brought huge disadvantages along with it, which is why it eventually disappeared from the scene when it became more important to be able to dodge effectively than it was to soak up the damage once gunpowder came along.

My own analysis and armor experience (modern body armor on a modern battlefield) leads me to a completely different conclusion, one that the Savage World rules support very well. But opinions vary and this is probably the wrong spot for that discussion.

Dragon Warriors Armour Conversion to Savage Worlds Explorer's Edition:
Gambeson: +1 armor, Torso and 25% Arms. 5 lbs.
Padded Armor: +1 armor, Torso and Limbs. 10 lbs.
Mail Hauberk: +2 armor, Torso and 50% Limbs. 20 lbs.
Mail Armor: +2 armor, Torso and Limbs. 25 lbs.
Plate Armor: +3 armor, All Locations. 50 lbs.
Armor is bypassed via called shots - either to exposed locations or into the inevitable gaps of even the best coverage. For flavor text, excessively wounding blows can be described as bypassing armor.
I hope that helped some.


@Planecreek
When figuring melee damage I assume the minimum strength to get full weapon damage. Not always realistic, but I've been surprised how often it lines up with what my players actually build - I rarely see player characters that specialize in daggers and have more than a d4 Strength.
And you're right, I'd forgotten the +4 Mounted Charging damage bonus.
Average dice results for Acing dice are 1/2 die size + 1. d4 = 3, d6 = 4, d8 = 5, d10 = 6, d12 = 7 (and d20 = 11 if it ever comes up). That's already included in my calculations. But Wild Attacks and hitting with a Raise are more likely for PCs than for Extras, which is why I said that combat PCs will be tougher than before and they'll mow through Extras just as easily as they already do.
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