Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[dentris]

The idea for these Edges started while reading a thread about Serenity (the series). The main focus was, since Mal seemed like a good warrior, why did he (almost) lost the rapier duel and how it could be translated in Savage Worlds. I designed 2 Edges for evasive and agile fighters to use against big brutes.

Finesse
Requirements: Seasoned, Agility d8+, Fighting d8+

You have +2 Parry against Wild Attacks, essentially negating their attack bonus (but not the damage bonus)

Improved Finesse
Requirements: Veteran, Finesse, Agility d10+

Instead of a Wild Attack, you may make a Fine Attack. You have +2 to your attacks, but -2 to your damage (and no penalty to Parry)

Comments?
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But the Voice consoles me and it says: "Keep your dreams;
Wise men do not have such beautiful ones as fools!"
--Baudelaire, Les Fleurs du Mal, 1857, Translated by William Aggeler, 1954

[Sean-Khan]

I like it! I'm not yet familiar enough with the game to know how often wild attacks are used, but I've heard comments about them being overpowered, so I guess the first edge is good enough. And second one is a definite combat style, which I've been looking for in SW. I wonder if they need that high rank requirements though?

[Rachan]

I kinda like it, too. And the reason I like it is because the benefit is very situational and concise … it seems balanced.

The only thing I'm not sure about is that the first one kinda seems like a squelch for Wild Attacks, and as a player, I'd be choked if it got used against me too often. The high requirements set that off for beginning games, but at higher ranks, it would become a lot more common, which might get frustrating.

I would suggest something like this:


Finesse
Requirements: Seasoned, Agility d8+, Fighting d8+

You can spend a benny to gain +2 Parry against a Wild Attack, essentially negating their attack bonus (but not the damage bonus)


That way squelching the Wild Attack is a matter of choice, of strategy, and not simply an "always on" effect. If it seems too weak this way, make it a +4 Parry instead—now you're using your attacker's recklessness against him to give him a net penalty instead of just taking away his bonus.

I'd still keep the requirements high for both of them—particularly the rank requirements. This represents experience, rather than training … and you just can't "teach" finesse.
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[quote="77IM"]… it's not specifically allowed by the rules, but the GM is specifically allowed to allow it. [/quote]

[kreider204]

I strongly disagree that Wild Attack is overpowered - I'm not sure who you heard say that, but I'd be interested in their reasons. If my character makes a Wild Attack, his Parry is reduced by 2 until his next action, so every single opponent on the battlefield basically gets the equivalent of a +2 Fighting against my opponent - that's quite a trade-off. Furthermore, if PCs can Wild Attack, so can NPCs, especially the PCs' enemies, so that really balances things out.

Wild Attacks are a very carefully designed feature of the combat rules - the PEG folks were thinking about all this folks, trust me - and I'd be very careful about introducing edges that essentially bypass it. I'm not saying don't do it - just be very careful to think about all the consequences, and give it a rigorous playtesting before making it an official part of your house rules.
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"It only takes an extra second to be courteous."
- Constable Benton Fraser

[Rachan]

Yeah ... actually, on second thought, Kreider's right.

I might still give a thumbs up to the first one, if you have to spend a benny. But negating the Parry penalty on Improved Finesse is a lot bigger benefit than I realized.
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[quote="77IM"]… it's not specifically allowed by the rules, but the GM is specifically allowed to allow it. [/quote]

[Lord Lance]

[77IM]

Finesse seems rather weak to me. In general, "+2 Parry, but only some of the time" seems balanced (since "+1 Parry, all the time" is balanced). BUT in this case, your opponent has full control of the situation; if they decide not to Wild Attack, then your edge never takes effect.

Plus, there's just something a little dull about an edge with the sole purpose of negating someone else's maneuver. I dunno, I see where you are going with it but it really would not excite me as a player. Ways I might improve this:
- Apply the bonus against Wild Attacks, Called Shots, and Fine Attacks. This might be too good, though. In general, a +2 Parry should apply 50% of the time to be balanced. The danger is stacking it with existing Parry-bonus technology. If a player is trying to max their Parry, a +2 against so many different sorts of attacks sounds too good.
- Apply the bonus when you get hit with a raise (effectively, melee attackers must exceed your Parry by 6 in order to hit with a raise). So the character isn't any harder to hit, just harder to accidentally wallop. Ironically, this makes Called Shots and Wild Attacks more attractive against such a character. I kind of like that, since it adds a tactical aspect to the fight.



I really like the second edge (Improved Finesse). +2 Attack/-2 Damage is a straight trade-off, but it could be useful in a lot of situations, so I think it's worth an edge. You should clarify:
- Is it melee attacks only?
- Can you use it with Frenzy, Sweep, and fighting with two weapons?
- Can you use it with Called Shots?

If the answer is "yes," this edge opens up some interesting possibilities. Like, instead of taking Improved Sweep, just perform a Fine Sweep and transfer your attack penalty into a damage penalty. OR make a Fine Called Shot to the Vitals for -2 attack, but only +2 damage. OR take multiple actions (Acrobatic Agility Trick + Fine Attack) and the MAP applies to damage rather than attack. Pretty sweet stuff, and I don't think it's unbalanced at all.

The "edge case" here (hehe), might be combining it with Improved Trademark Weapon. A Fine Called Shot to the Vitals would be +0 attack, +2 damage! Or, a regular Fine Attack is +4 attack, which is a very good chance of a raise (+1d6 damage, -2 for Fine attack, expected value +2 damage). Granted, the player has piled on the edges in order to get that damage, so it doesn't seem imbalanced, but if you play test it, it might be.

-- 77IM
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Stuff I made: Arcane Abilities · Talent Edge · Savage Fading Suns · Savage Wuxia!

[ogbendog]

well, even if your foe has Finesse, and you wild attack, you still get +2 to damage. the thing is, if you Wild Attack, and miss becuae of finesse, now you are -2 to parry and might get smacked pretty hard by your foe.

Might be tempting to say, the bonus is +2 with dagger, staff, or rapier, +1 otherwise

[kreider204]

LL: Do you have a link to the thread you mentioned? I did a couple of searches and can't find it (I'm probably just overlooking something obvious), and I'd be interested to see the discussion.
_________________
"It only takes an extra second to be courteous."
- Constable Benton Fraser

[kreider204]

[Lord Lance]

[kreider204]

[dentris]

[islan]

I kinda wonder why it's called Finesse. It also seems a little odd that an Edge that let's you do a different version of Wild Attack (which I guess is meant to get around the Finesse Edge) would require the Finesse Edge.

[Sean-Khan]

I guess the power of wild attack depends on gm'ing style - in other games I've often thrown single boss monsters against players, so I could immediately see all players using wild attacks to mob such, and saw some other opinions too.

I agree ogbendog on limiting the edge on mentioned weapons - it would also be fair on the wild attack -using characters, as opponent's weapon could hint them about possibility of this combat style.

I could see the first edge working on benny use only if it could be used after the attack roll.

[dentris]