Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[wyrdhamster]

Thought anyone about savgaing the Eclipse Phase game?

It's Creative Commons, fully legal game, and any conversion is legal in that light. More on Eclipse Phase here.

EDIT: Changed topic name in to statement, not question, as work has begun.

[77IM]

It seems like a really good candidate for Savaging. I like the idea of switching to a new body with all new stats, but I think the detailed rules of Eclipse Phase are an impediment. Games where you create multiple characters (or multiple bodies, in this case) should have really fast character creation, and SW fits the bill. The big problem, I think, is that radically non-human characters don't work as well in SW. I think a good starting point for the conversion might be the Necessary Evil/Supers Companion powers system, since it allows very flexible characters and crazy super-human levels of ability.

-- 77IM

[Lord Lance]

About that part, I think you simply need to create some "templates", and switch from one to another, when you change body. However, it's not so common to do that (it's expensive, it's not a flawless technology, an hacker could "play" with your memory data while they are trasmitted, if you are a scoundrel, you have to use "pirate" internet nodes... etc.)

PS: great game, original setting, cool transhuman sci-fi... finally... Creative Commons!

[wyrdhamster]

[Lord Lance]

Absolutely. Too many skills, too much useless details... I think Eclipse Phase could be a GREAT S.W. product in less then 80 pages...

[wyrdhamster]

Some first take, feel free to comment it. Link .

[serene_muse]

I've seen a d6 conversion, and while IIRC it really only convered chargen that was 2-3 pages tops.

[wyrdhamster]

I was thinking lastly about conversion and I think I will use some, ( or many ;] ) rules from free Cyberpunk rules from Triple Aces - here you go.

What I lack is some disadvantage for using the Biomorphs. I was thinking about giving free Hindrance to character, major one, like Olympians will generate Overconfident tendencies and a like, to capture a feel of the Morph better. What do you think about this idea?

If go this rout the Overconfident, normally, Ego could just take Olympians and wouldn't suffer any drawbacks - maybe it's okey?

EDIT: Very large updates, made most of Morphs, only those more unhuman will slowly be done. On first fire will go Neo-Homids and Arachnoids as they are needed for demo to be run on SW mechanics.

[wyrdhamster]

I think how to solve New Economy and Reputations system and how to change Old Economy "buy equipment with this and this number of credits" to something more abstract, like SW Wealth rules. Any suggestions?

[Rorik36]

Nice work so far. The first thing I though after picking the book up was how to Savage it. Hopefully I can find some time this summer to try this out.

[Fargg]

Not sure if this was dead.

I agree with posters so far. I was taken in by the initial brush (very simple resolution mechanic) and talked my group into playing it.

The system is pretty hideous. Good RPing ideas just get sucked away by all the rules. Our minmaxer was gleeful at first but eventually he got a bit bored by the tedium of all the calculations.

Conveniently they've realized the system is not the strength; almost all the sourcebooks are system-lite to system-non-existant. The new Gatecrasher book is great. And they're continuing to release official torrents for the books to show their commitment to the open source thing.


On the conversion front

Personally I think that any conversion should be very "savage".
A crazy/big setting with a huge number of potential NPCs, setting changes and assorted weirdness screams for a "lite" rules setting. And Firewall is perfect for focusing on a savage game.
The "you can die easily but be resleeved" "run multiple forks" "have a sword-to-gun fight in micro gravity with an ape man" and so on all scream Savage Worlds to me.

Generally most of the conversion is going to just be tossing and simplifying rules. A lot of the minor effects of the rules can be handled by roleplaying; especially the morph modifications, cyberware and so on.
A lot of the advantages would make great edges with minor tweaking.
Races would work well to provide small advantages for backgrounds.
Professional edges could be worked out for some of the bigger factions (i.e. Ultimates, Mercurians, etc.)

However I see changing morphs regularly as a big part of the setting. Ideally It should be easy to implement and simple to understand.
I agree that there should only be a small number of effects per morph but it's not modeled well using the race system of SW (and the race system of SW isn't designed to allow changes rapid or frequent changes it's one of the first choices you make in character creation because it is potentially very so fundamental to later calculations).

In particularly increasing dice sizes for attributes seems like a no go to me because 1) it's not simple and 2) the balancing effects of attributes really show up when you -buy- skills. Someone getting into a very agile combat morph increases your skills in EP, and I think that is important to reflect in the system.

I would suggest that morphs be treated as gear and just have simple defined effects.

Two ideas to reflect bonuses provided by higher end morphs

Option 1: Flat +1 bonus to certain skills (i.e. physical or mental) (or maybe +2 for the truly amazing morph).
-- Pros: Simple; There are items and edges out there that give +1/-1
--Cons: If it's only -1,0,+1 there isn't much variation if you have +2 then the good morphs become amazing
(I.E. someone with d4 in fighting in an ultimate (+2) is going to average 4.5; someone with d10 in fighting in a flat (-1) is going to average 4.5 -- that basically "breaks" the implication in EP that your ego's skills are an essential factor.)

Option 2: Changing "aceing". (more of a thought experiment)
--Mooks morphs could just be handled in the attributes (i.e. offscreen). Singificant NPCs will be wild cards (and thus have Wild Dice and likely encounter the PCs in different morphs)

Changing Acing just means that you Ace on a 5 or a 6 on a roll of d6. So you roll another d6 and add to the original roll (of 5 or 6).
Likewise lower quality morphs like Flats wouldn't Ace (or would only Ace on their wild die); which hammers home the "dystopian future where you're stuck in a bad body" feeling.

--Pros: the system is "built" to allow very high rolls from time to time; you still get the dice you have purchased (i.e. someone with a d10 in fighting is always a threat, even in a small pleasure morph)
--Cons: Not as simple; have to develop some sort of terminologly to explain that Fighting d8 (A2) means you Ace on your top 2 numbers (i.e. 7,8 )
--Neutral: While small dice "ace" more frequently the amount each Ace adds is also small; so it's not going "advantage" small dice numerically.


Sorry this is so long. I have very limited SW play experience right now, though we are hopefully going to start a game in a month or two.

-------
The big elephant in terms of a good Savage Eclipse Phase is really the disassociation/trauma system (which I don't remember well but includes some very cool but very involved serious of mental stats related to "lost time", "connection to morph" and "cosmic horror" -- sorry can't remember terms right now).

[Lord Lance]

@Fargg: welcome aboard!!

Men, I'm just too busy with other campaigns to think about that now, however I really hope to play with Eclipse Phase setting, using SW rule system!
PS: I think that mooks AND W.C. enemies shouldn't bother for morphs modifiers. Simply choose the "numbers" you need, and create the NPC. Simply add some special effect, like "swarm" or "wallwalker" ability for specific morphs...

@Wyrdhamster:

[Fargg]

LL, thanks for the welcome. I know the feeling. I may not continue to contribute as things rise and fall.

Any thoughts about which idea is better for dealing with morph abilities?

Re: Wealth
In a setting where one of the principles is that old-school, transitional and new repulation-based post-scarcity economies are all competeing and coexisting in the setting it's difficult to know how much cut.
I am leaning toward typical SW wealth (using credits as the denominator) for the inner system with "rep" being represented as die types.

Characters from certain backgrounds would get points to buy dice (just like skills).
So someone could have
@-rep 6d

That lets you preserve the "maybe you can get it maybe you can't" feel in an intuitive system that maintains the SW core resolution mechanic.
d10 would correspond roughly to a score of 100 (i.e. very high).
Frequent roles would be assessed a penalty.

That also allows backgrounds (AKA races) to be balanced somewhat. Hypercorp elite get wealth edges for free while an anarchist might get @-rep.
Unlike a "typical" SW game settling where wealth basically travels with you the hypercorp-elite only has easy access to their wealth when they are in the inner system meaning that in a typical game they would be fabulously wealthy on Mars, but really tight on resources if they had to egocast to a remote community.

[Fargg]

Think this was covered in the first post but

The EP Creative Commons License requires a link to this Eclipse Phase page.

[Fargg]

Unless otherwise noted characters begin with
1 "free" edge
d4 hacking
3 areas where the character can make checks for <un>common knowledge using the common knowledge rules (reflecting interests from EP which I liked as an idea and helps round out characters) -- needs to be fleshed out more
3 points to spend on rep (buy like skills)
Edges: Some Physical Edges are not available to characters: they must be acquired by sleeving into the appropriate morph (and can be lost or unavailable if the morph is); those that are allowed are purchased by the ego and apply to all morphs (unless noted otherwise, or would be inappropriate).
Of the Arcane Backgrounds only Async (Psionics) is available -- it should probably cost extra similar to Sorcerers in DAR. No power edges are available. Not sure if the mentalist professional edge should be allowed?
Changed Edges
Acrobat applies to Athletics when appropriate
Noble = Hyperelite; not all hyperelite have enough resources and obligations to have the edge.

Hindrances: Most physical hindrances are not available to PCs (including Anemic, Bad Eyes, Elderly, Hard of Hearing, Lame, Obese, One <whatever body part>, Small, Ugly). A character may be sleeved into a morph with these traits but the PC receives no additional mechanical benefit.
The Illiterate Hindrance is unavailable, the All Thumbs hindrance is a Major Hinderance


Backgrounds (treated as SW Races b/c choosen 1st, "stick" with your character throughout and should be balanced vs each other)
Proposed SW advantages are in italics

drifter: +10 Navigation skill, +20 Pilot: Spacecraft skill, +10 Networking: [Field] skill of your choice
d4 Piloting, d4 Knowledge (Navigation), +1 on athletic tests in free fall
typical rep @-rep, g-rep

Fall evacuee: +10 Pilot: Groundcraft skill, +10 Networking: [Field] skill of your choice, +1 Moxie, only 2,500 Starting Credit (can still buy credit with CP)
d4 Driving, Hindrance: Poverty, Edge: Luck
typical rep: any

hyperelite: +10 Protocol skill, +10,000 Credit, +20 Networking: Hypercorps skill, may not start with flat, splicer, or any pod, uplift, or synthetic morphs
Edge: Rich*, d6 c-rep, receive a Exalt or Slyph morph for no cost
typical rep: more c-rep, r-rep
*Could be swapped up to noble if the player and DM agree.

infolife: +30 Interfacing skill, Computer skills (Infosec, Interfacing, Programming, Research) bought with Customization Points are half price, Real World Naiveté trait, Social Stigma (AGI) trait, may not purchase Psi trait, Social skills bought with Customization Points are double price
hacking increased to d6, knowledge (programming) d4, investigation d4, Hindrance: Social Stigma (AGI) -1 Cha when dealing with non-infolife, can not buy Arcane Background, Hindrance: Clueless
typical rep: any

isolate: +20 to two skills of your choice, –10 starting Rep
only have 2 points for rep

lost: +20 to two Knowledge skills of your choice, Psi trait (Level 1), Mental Disorder (choose two, this includes the one from Psi) trait, Social Stigma (Lost) trait, must start with Futura morph
Arcane Background (Async), Social Stigma (Lost -1 Cha to all non-lost), Character has 2 major or 1 minor hindrances of the following types (For which they receive no benefit): Deathwish, Delusional, Mean, Phobia, Quirk; begin play with futura morph

lunar colonist: +10 Pilot: Groundcraft skill, +10 to one Technical, Academic: [Field], or Profession: [Field] skill of your choice, +20 Networking: Hypercorps skill

martian: +10 Pilot: Groundcraft skill, +10 to one Technical, Academic: [Field], or Profession: [Field] skill of your choice, +20 Networking: Hypercorps skill

original space colonist: +10 Pilot: Spacecraft or Freefall skill, +10 to a Technical, Academic: [Field], or Profession: [Field] skill of your choice, +20 to a Networking: [Field] skill of your choice

re-instantiated: +10 Pilot: Groundcraft skill, +10 to a Networking: [Field] skill of your choice, +2 Moxie, Edited Memories trait, 0 Starting Credit (can still buy credit with CP)

scumborn: +10 Persuasion or Deception skill, +10 Scrounging skill, +20 Networking: Autonomists skill

uplift: +10 Fray skill, +10 Perception skill, +20 to two Knowledge skills of your choice, must choose an uplift morph to start

FACTIONS (probably have to be professional edges) - does everyone get a free "faction" edge? I don't like that because, frankly, the ultimate edge isn't going to be "equal" to the other factions (which is a bit of a problem in the current EP rules system and doesn't need to be replicated here -- there is a weak attempt at balance by forcing you to start with certain morphs but making the combat titan ultimiate buy a great combat morph isn't a limiting factor).

anarchist: +10 to a skill of your choice, +30 Networking: Autonomists skill

argonaut: +10 to two Technical, Academic: [Field], or Profession: [Field] skills; +20 Networking: Scientists

barsoomian: +10 Freerunning, +10 to one skill of your choice, +20 Networking: Autonomists skill brinker: +10 Pilot: Spacecraft skill, +10 to a skill of your choice,
+20 to a Networking: [Field] skill of your choice

criminal: +10 Intimidation skill, +30 Networking: Criminal skill

extropian: +10 Persuasion skill, +20 Networking: Autonomists skill, +10 Networking: Hypercorps skill

hypercorp: +10 Protocol skill, +20 Networking: Hypercorps skill, +10 to any Networking: [Field] skill

Jovian: +10 to two weapon skills of your choice, +10 Fray, +20 Networking: Hypercorps skill. must start with a Flat or Splicer morph, may not start with any nanoware or advanced nanotech

lunar: +10 to one Language: [Field] of your choice, +20 Networking: Hypercorps skill, +10 Networking: Ecologists skill

mercurial: +10 to any two skills of your choice, +20 to a Networking: [Field] skill of your choice

scum: +10 Freefall skill, +10 to a skill of your choice, +20 Networking: Autonomists skill

socialite: +10 Persuasion skill, +10 Protocol skill, +20 Networking: Media skill, may not start with flat, pod, uplift, or synthetic morphs

titanian: +10 to two Technical or Academic skills of your choice, +20 Networking: Autonomists skill

ultimate: +10 to two skills of your choice, +20 to a Networking: [Field] skill of your choice, may not start with Flat, Splicer, uplift, or pod morphs

Venusian: +10 Pilot: Aircraft, +10 to one skill of your choice, +20 Networking: Hypercorps skill

Morphs
Just putting rough rates for now -1 to +2 (rarity/value)
Unless otherwise noted an ego must fulfill all the requirements in order to be able to use a given edge provided by the morph.

Flat (-1)
Splicer (0)
Exalt (1)
Menton (2)
Olympian (2)
-Brawny
Sylph (1)
-Very Attractive
Bouncer
Fury (2)
Futura (1)
Ghost (2)
Hibernoids (0)
Neotenic (0)
Remade (2)
Ruster (1)
Neo-Avian (1)
Neo-Hominid (1)
Octomorph (2?)
Pleasure Pod (0)
Worker Pod (0)
Novacrab (2)
Case (-1)
Synth (0)
Arachnoid (2?)
Dragonfly (2)
Flexbots (2)
Reaper (*) - PCs should never start with Reapers
Slitheroid (2)
Swarmanoid (2)
Infomorph(-1)

Probably need to do skills first.
see next post


PS Just for reference there is a great EP fate conversion.

[Fargg]

Base SW skills used in EP

Driving
Fighting
Guts
Healing
Intimidation
Investigation Investigation, of anything of significant difficulty, in EP is virtually always based around the mesh and reputation. For many uses of investigation the DM may limit your investigation die size to the size of the highest rep die you have available -- personally or from an assistant with a higer rep. (Or alternatively by deception if you are impersonating someone)
Knowledge
Notice
Persuasion
Piloting Anything from planes to spacecraft;
Repair
Shooting
Stealth
Taunt
Throwing

New Skills

Hacking Lower level hacking is interface, higher is infosec. Everyone gets d4 base unless they have the hindrance (similar to Interface zero)
Athletics "Combines two limited use skills (Climbing and Swimming, along with a host of other skillls that are also too special case to be a single SW skill like Free Fall, Freerunning and Flight).
Special Rule: Increasing die size in athletics is governed by the lower of your Strength or Agility) So if someone has Str d8 and Agility d6 then they pay two points for every die increase above d6."
Deception Struggled a lot because I don’t want to add new skills; but this is a big part of the setting. Applies to lying, impersonation (both over the mesh and in meat space), setting up false identities (forging) as well as physical tricks like palming small items. The kinds of things a con man can do.

Limited Use - these skills aren't banned; characters can choose to have them (and small groups of people in the world might find some use for them) but in general players should understand they will get little use out of the skill

Boating limited use
Gambling limited use
Lockpicking If you could even find one a purely mechanical lock is an oddity; hacking is the normal skill
Riding limited use
Survival limited use - doesn’t even exist in typical EP rules
Tracking limited use
Streetwise Most information gathering uses investigation; except for a few isolated locations on Mars or Scum barges there aren't the sort of non-mesh/rep interfaced interactions where streetwise is applicable. The skill was almost removed for this reason

Removed

Climbing replaced by Athletics
Swimming replaced by Athletics

Conversion from EP skills (mostly for reference)
EP Skills Converts To
Academics: [Field] Knowledge
Animal Handling Riding
Art: [Field]
Beam Weapons Shooting
Blades Fighting
Climbing Athletics
Clubs Fighting
Control Psi
Deception Deception
Demolitions Throwing or Knowledge (Demolitions)
Exotic Melee Weapon: [Field] Fighting
Exotic Ranged Weapon: [Field] Shooting
Flight Athletics
Fray Fighting
Free Fall Athletics
Freerunning Athletics
Gunnery Shooting
Hardware: [Field] Repair or Knowledge (Design <whatever the equipment in question is>)
Impersonation Deception
Infiltration Stealth
Infosec Hacking
Interest: [Field] Knowledge (Whatever you are interested in)
Interfacing Hacking
Intimidation Intimidation
Investigation Investigation
Kinesics Notice
Kinetic Weapons Shooting
Language: [Field] Standard Language Rules
Medicine: [Field] Healing
Navigation Knowledge (Navigation)
Networking: [Field] (Per your rep die or Persuasion or Streetwise)
Palming Deception
Perception Notice
Persuasion Persuasion
Pilot: [Field] Piloting
Profession: [Field] Knowledge (Whatever a professional in)
Programming Knowledge (Programming)
Protocol Pesuasion or (Per your rep die)
Psi Assault PSI
Psychosurgery PSI
Research Investigation
Scrounging Investigation or Notice or rep dice
Seeker Weapons Shooting
Sense PSI
Spray Weapons Shooting
Swimming Athletics
Throwing Weapons Throwing
Unarmed Combat Fighting

[Sitting Duck]

[ValhallaGH]

First, I will remind you of the (often neglected) amazing Common Knowledge rules. Awesome for fiddly knowledge and resolution of things that aren't common or powerful enough to be real skills.

[burningcrow]

I'd have a look at the SciFi Companion and Interface Zero. They basically have all the stuff covered you'd need for Eclipse Phase.

I'm not a big fan of conversions that try to convert the rules to SW ... rather take what's there and try to communicate the setting by applying SW rules.

[Fargg]