Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[77IM]

[islan]

Not necessarily in regards to Savage Worlds, but I think one of the easiest time-keeper method is to just track things by "scene". As I run games, I can easily tell when a scene changes; usually its denoted by changing location or fast-forwarding through time. But since it doesn't have a set time (a "scene" can last a variable amount of game time), some players might have a problem with this, considering it to be an evil of GM arbitration.

Trying to change Powers in Savage Worlds to run on such a clock, though, makes me think it would be easier to just add it in with a completely different magic system entirely.

[GranFalloon]

I've been pondering the same thing. I think the trouble with just layering it onto Savage Worlds is this:

In 4E, they took extra effort to make sure everyone has something fun to do every round. Even if you're playing a "Buff" class that gives bonuses to the other characters, it's something you do every round, rather than casting a spell, then watching its timer run out. Most of the buffs are in addition to another effect. So you're not just giving your buddy a +2 attack the goblin, you're hitting the goblin in a way that doesn't do much damage (Buff powers don't usually deal much hurt), but also gives a bonus to whoever else wants to lay a beat-down on that hapless goblin.

Translating this to Savage Worlds would be tricky, as you wouldn't just want to make spells only last one round. Let's face it, casting Smite every turn would suck. Also, effects similar to 4e already kind of exist in the form of Tricks and Tests of Will (in the mechanical sense).

Let me go dig up my Spell Tokens idea I had a while ago. I thought it was a pretty good idea, but I wasn't really happy with the end result. Maybe some folks here can mangle it into something better.

[GranFalloon]

Man... I need to organize my RPG folders. It's atrocious in there. Fortunately, I had posted the idea here in the forums, and dang if they didn't save 'em for me. Thanks, Pinnacle!

Here's the thread: http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24703&highlight=

And... hey, look at that, you, Mr. 77IM, were the first person to respond.

[elf23]

I've pondered this as well. The durations of Savage Worlds powers are so close to being uniform (90+% of them last for 3 rounds) that it seems like it shouldn't be hard to come up with something.

What i was thinking, inspired by D&D 4e, was of having a die roll each round to determine whether a power continues or ends, instead of counting down the duration. The probability could be worked out so that on average powers would still last 3 rounds (would that be a 1 in 4 chance or something? - my knowledge of probability maths isn't very good!). I guess if the "maintenance roll" failed the caster would then have the choice of paying 1PP to have recharge it - having it last an extra round (or maybe just resetting it so that a roll was required again each round).

And, as islan says, per scene duration is a simple and flexible idea for powers with longer duration, like light or disguise.

[steelbrok]

Maybe the answer is simply to split powers into Instant and Maintained (pretty muck like Helfrost?)

One thing I would consider adding is Ritual, spells that will be maintained but take longer (sometimes a lot longer) than a round to cast. These would be for things like summoning storms or creating zombies. And yes it does seem to add some book-keeping back in but these things would generally done in preparation for a combat rather than in the middle of a firefight

[77IM]

I remember that Token system! That is a good system but I am looking for something that is easy to plug in to the existing powers. Maybe, doubling all the numbers involved would let us use the normal PP costs of existing powers?

And I vaguely remember a thread where someone proposed something like what elf23 has suggested regarding dice rolls. This has got me thinking and doing a little math. Suppose for each power you roll a d6 and on a 1, the power expires. You have a 58% chance of the power lasting the regular 3 rounds or longer (balanced by the 42% chance that it expires after only 1 or 2 rounds). After the power expires you could follow the regular maintenance rules. That seems pretty workable to me. Thoughts? Better alternatives?

I like the idea of making duration powers just be "encounter" powers but I'm not sure how it impacts game balance. It would suck to get hit with lower trait with an encounter duration, and deflect with a longer duration could be much too strong.

-- 77IM

[EldritchFire]

[FoxBlue]

EF- there already is a -1 penalty to all arcane skill rolls for each maintained power.

[Sean Patrick Fannon]

This was in Shaintar: Immortal Legends, and it has been updated for the new Shaintar product. So I thought I'd let it out as a new "teaser" and also help with the question in this forum -

~~~~~~~~~~
MORE FOR THE CASTING

In high fantasy (especially fantasy games), it's not uncommon to find spells can be cast with longer durations than just a few seconds. As a matter of “team support,” many spellcaster players like to have the chance to “buff” their teammates with some empowering or protective spells.

To support these ideas in Shaintar, there are three approaches to casting spells (channeling gifts, activating disciplines, etc.) that pretty much all casters (except alchemists) have access to. These are Combat Casting, Meditative Casting, and Ritualized Casting.

Combat Casting is what all Savage Worlds players are used to. It takes an action, and most spells with any duration last in terms of Rounds. They can usually be extended at the cost of 1 additional Essence (Power Point) per additional Round.

Meditative Casting allows spellcasters to take a minute to cast a spell instead of doing it as an Action. Doing this extends the duration of the spell by a factor of 10, while still costing the same amount of base Essence. In other words, a spell that normally lasts 3 Rounds would last for 3 minutes instead. As well, any Essence spent to extend it would add another minute instead of a Round.

Ritualized Casting takes this idea and goes exponentially further. Rituals take an hour, and normally require other factors. This includes having a location conducive to the kind of magic being invoked, as well as special materials costing 10 Gold (1000 Copper) per Essence needed to cast the spell. Success means the duration of the spell is 100x greater. Thus, a 3 Round spell would last 30 minutes instead.

Note that anyone performing a Ritualized casting is subject to Disruption if they are damaged or Shaken while casting. The time and the Essence are both lost if this happens, and they must start over again.

At the same time, if a caster gets assistance while casting a Ritualized spell, the roll to successfully cast the spell can be supported by casters of the same style. Use the rules for Cooperative Rolls when this happens, thus increasing the chance that this expensive spell casting will be successful.

(If casters want to share Essence to cast such a spell, they will need the Essence Link Edge – see the Powers Edges for more information.)

Of course, some Powers have different durations than the standard 3 Rounds/+1 Round per extra Essence. Use the following chart to determine the extended duration of a Power when cast in the Meditative or Ritualized fashion.

Base Duration == Meditative == Ritualized

Rounds == Minutes == 10 Minutes
Minutes == 10 Minutes == 100 Minutes
10 Minutes == 100 Minutes == 10 Hours
Hours == 10 Hours == 4 Days

Example: The Clairvoyance Power has a normal duration of 3 Rounds (+1/rnd.). Using Meditative Casting, it would last 3 minutes (+1/minute). Using Ritual Casting, it would last 30 minutes (+1/10 minutes). Using the Ritual, it would also cost 30 gold in materials to cast (60 gold if the caster wished to add hearing).

In practical terms, pre-combat “buffing” is still fairly limited. You can only Meditative Cast two “3/1” spells beforehand; waiting to cast a third one means you are already paying Maintenance to get a third one off. Some may choose to do this, anyway, but the point of diminishing returns arrive pretty quickly.

Still, this system really enhances the role of magic in the setting, and strengthens the utility of spellcasting in a way that works for fantasy. As well, it will make the Game Master’s job easier, in that he can go ahead and pre-figure some spells as active on bad guy casters before a battle.
_________________
Sean Patrick Fannon
Evil Beagle Games
The FREE Shaintar Player's Guide

Bad Dog. Good Games.

[Sean Patrick Fannon]

PS - This system was originally developed for Shaintar by your Favorite Savage Guru and Mine - Clint Black.
_________________
Sean Patrick Fannon
Evil Beagle Games
The FREE Shaintar Player's Guide

Bad Dog. Good Games.

[evilscience]

You could also, just have them roll their arcane skill for every round with a target number of 4 for every round after they cast the power.

If that seems too overpowering, have them roll once with no negative, the second time with a TN of 2 , the third at TN 4 and so on.

Thoughts? Theories? Revelations?

[Lord Lance]

[shadd4d]

Check out the Rippers Companion, as it has an AB (Gypsy Magic) which focuses upon extended duration. There's also something similar to what SPF put up which is about extended durations and ritual preparations...think about turning on a spell and having it always at the ready for on/off for a certain period, be it minutes, hours or days.

That might help in extending duration beyond combat turns.
_________________
Don

"But there is a difference between fear and horror. An important difference.
Fear is when you worry about what might be.
Horror is when you are certain." Dannyboy01

[ENWRel]

Another approach might be to allow the power to stay active until the end of the encounter or the caster voluntarily dismisses it. BUT, each round you roll a d4 (or maybe d6 or maybe that's an Edge to use a d6 or maybe you use a d6 if you got a raise on the casting check) for every active spell. On a roll of 1 you have to spend a Power Point to maintain it.

If you get lucky then it's a price break on casting that spell. If not then you might end up spending double or triple the normal points on the maintenance.

[77IM]

SPF, that is a pretty neat system, although it doesn't address my main problem which is the 3-round duration. I have no problems tracking a 3-minute duration since it is out of combat and doesn't need to be as accurate. I do like your suggestion of using this style magic to pre-buff, but often that isn't possible. (And I am very intrigued by the Rituals, as I am always on the lookout for a good ritual system. When are we going to get some Shaintar 2 previews?)


ENWRel, I like what you are thinking. I posted something similar up above but kind of like your version better. Also you should sue that other Rel for identity theft.

Here's what I am thinking. Ditch the "maintenance" phase and do:
- If you have duration spells active, they can be disrupted by damage or Shaken (like during maintenance), but don't impose any additional cost or spellcasting penalties.
- You roll a d4 for each spell going and on a 1, it terminates OR you have to spend its maintenance cost (1pp for most spells; I think quickness is the only one in the core with 2pp maintenance cost).
- Edges: Extended Power increases your duration die 1 step (may be taken multiple times).


evilscience's idea of using the arcane skill roll might also have similar probabilities. The problem I see is maintaining multiple spells -- I don't want to start my combat round by rolling 3 arcane skill checks (3 d4's is easier). But what if the TN were 4 for one power +2 for each additional power? For every 2 points by which you fail the check, you have to either drop a power or spend 1pp. That's weird because "degree of failure" is not common in SW, but OTOH it uses a standard Trait check which people are familiar with.


Another idea I had, which would work for Magic and Psionics, is to increase backlash range. So maintaining 1 power causes backlash on a 1 or 2 on your spellcasting/psi die, maintaining 2 powers causes backlash on a 1-3 on your spellcasting/psi die, etc. Maybe the 2pp powers (quickness) increase the backlash range by 2. Of course if you become Shaken you need to make checks to maintain your powers. This makes especial sense for Psionics since maintaining powers should feel like a kind of struggle.

-- 77IM

[shadd4d]

[ENWRel]

I'm generally a fan of unified mechanics and there might be a better way to accomplish this via a spellcasting skill roll. But I keep coming back to the maintenance check as a fairly simple way of tracking this.

Extending on what you said above, what about doing the d4 check only once. But each spell maintained beyond the first puts a -1 on the roll. If the result is 1 then they have to pay a PP. If the result is LESS than 1 then they have to pay 2PP AND they become Shaken.

One benefit of this method is that it isn't a trait check so no Wild Die, which makes your math a lot harder to balance.

I will say that once you have to start adding mechanics like this (even though I love tinkering) it starts to look attractive to simply track the duration normally. To that end it might be good to take a page from some other games. I recently tried out the new edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying and they have a card for each spell (or other ability) and when you cast it you place "Recharge Tokens" on the card that determine when it will be available again.

This seems like it would port well to Savage Worlds as a visual and tactile aid for ongoing spell effects. I find that I forget this stuff too often so having a card out there reminds me to implement the effect of the spell. So I'd see it working like this:

My character casts a spell successfully.
I place the card in front of me with the name of the spell and its effects listed on the card. On this card I place some tokens that represent the number of additional rounds before the spell would expire.
On subsequent rounds whenever I hand in my initiative card I also take a token off the Spell Card.
When there are no more tokens on the card then I either take it off the table or pay the PP to maintain it.

[77IM]

I am really terrible at arithmetic, so for me a dice-pool "count the 1s" is easier than any sort of modifier based on the number of spells, or outcomes based on how much you failed by.

I like your card idea, but it makes me think: Maybe the problem isn't remembering that the spell is active, but remembering when to decrement the duration. For example, in 4e you very specifically always make saving throws at the end of your turn. In SW I think durations expire at the start of your turn although it's unclear (since actions are "simultaneous" maybe you can take your action and simultaneously benefit from the effect right as the duration expires -- that would make more sense too, since otherwise you couldn't use a 1-round smite to attack, or be affected by a 1-round Paralysis). Maybe if duration tracking were a formal step in the round's "bookkeeping" it would be easier to remember to do it.

-- 77IM

[evilscience]

77IM:

That is exactly what I do in my games actually, hehe. Very intuitive way of doing it.