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New Incapacitation Table
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:33 pm    Post subject: New Incapacitation Table Reply with quote

Well, the new Incapacitation table is posted, and I’m sure there will be discussion of it, so I’ll start (I expect some talk about other things posted in the errata, but this is probably would elicit the most detailed comments from me).

Yep, instant death from Incapacitation is a lot more likely. We are taking the core system back to its roots of being Savage Worlds.

What we discovered over time from the previous version of the rules is that we ended up with situations somewhat similar to what occurs in other games where a character could perform insane actions (like jumping off a cliff or diving on a grenade) because they could only immediately die on a critical failure. If the character gets lucky and survives those things, cool, but there needs to be much higher odds of instant death than critical failures provide.

That said, we’re just talking about how the core system handles Incapacitation. We wanted something more “middle of the road” for settings where instant death on Incapacitation is a very real possibility, but it was also still possible to survive such an event and just be Shaken with a minor injury.

However, as a lot of you are aware, one of the most common Setting Rules in SW are variations on Incapacitation, from the Recurring Roles of Necessary Evil to the Gritty Damage rules for The Moscow Connection. A GM should always consider the role of Incapacitation on the feel of a setting and the game. For instance, here are some examples of variant Setting Rules for Incapacitation and how they might affect the game…

First, let’s consider the core rule to be “Savage” Incapacitation.

Heroic Incapacitation – Ignore Wound Modifiers on any Incapacitation roll. Hard to Kill instead provides a +2 bonus to Incapacitation rolls. Instant death is much more unlikely, but still a possibility for some concern.

Cinematic Incapacitation – All results on the Incapacitation table are moved down one category. So a critical failure acts as a Failure, a failure acts as a Success, and a success provides the same effect as a Raise. This makes death and permanent injuries almost non-existent, and a Wild Card is either going to be knocked out or stay in the fight with a minor injury.

It’s Good To Be The Hero Option – Not so much a rule on its own, but a variant that could be applied to the Heroic or Cinematic rules. In this version, the altered Incapacitation rules only apply to the player characters; NPCs (villains and allies) use the standard rules and are much more likely to die.

Harsh Incapacitation – All results on the Incapacitation table are moved up one category. Instant death now occurs on any failure. A success acts as a Failure, a raise acts as a Success, and the Raise result is either dropped or requires two raises to achieve. Aftermath for Extras works similarly where a raise is required to be alive but Incapacitated and anything lower means death. Surviving Incapacitation in this game is a rare event and those that do will often have the permanent injuries to show for it.

Cartoon Incapacitation – All damage is treated as nonlethal. It may look deadly, but no one is ever killed just knocked unconscious for a period of time. [Hard to Kill may be renamed Hard to Take Down.]

Of course, tweaks might be applied here or there to fit a specific setting as needed (a “grittier” cartoon setting may use the rules above but still allow a Finishing Move to kill a character). It all depends on the particular setting; I’m just putting out ideas to show the options available.

But at the baseline, yeah, once more it’s a savage world out there. Wink
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fanchergw
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Clint,

I'm quite pleased to see this change. The revised Incapacitation rules in SW:EX just seemed too "safe" to me.

I actually had a 50 F character survive a massive injury because my group suddenly decided on the spot to switch to the newer rules. While I can see the desire to have beloved characters survive, it really gutted the sense of immediate danger and virsimilitude that makes gaming exciting for me.

Thank you,

Gordon
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Sean Patrick Fannon
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been running under the new Incap rules for a bit and I concur that this is a good move all the way around. Good tips on the Setting Rules info, though, Clint.
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The GIT!
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoorah!!! This is an excellent revision of the Incapacitation Table. Many may remember that I was strongly against the way SWEX had changed the Incap Table and I know the change did cause a split of opinions. That said I have been using SWEX as written but I've always felt dissatisfied with it although, truth be told, I didn't go back to the Revised Edition either. This latest change certainly works for me and the Pinnacle Staff should be congratulated on making a very effective revision.

Clint - I like the proposed setting changes you listed; they certainly help to create very different feels to the way settings can operate. I really like this change.
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AFDia
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all a question to Clint:
Is it still possible to make a Healing roll to stabilize a hero after this hero has succeeded his Spirit roll but before the hero has succeeded the following Vigor rolls?

It is not mentioned anymore (neither is the "bleeding out" part)

About the new table:
I like the new table, but I still thing the intensity of the last blow should be considered (as the old SWR table does)
In my 50F campaign, I use the SWEX table with a houserule, that 5+ wounds lead to instant death and all of the characters who died (I guess around 5 guys), died from this houserule.

Or in other words: Although I have played more SWEX sessions than SWR sessions (not only 50F), I have never seen somebody dying by the new table, but many players died by the SWR table. I hope this statistic will change with the new table (although I will still use my 5+ wounds houserule)
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AFDia wrote:
First of all a question to Clint:
Is it still possible to make a Healing roll to stabilize a hero after this hero has succeeded his Spirit roll but before the hero has succeeded the following Vigor rolls?

It is not mentioned anymore (neither is the "bleeding out" part)


Actually, I don't think it was mentioned before, but yeah.

AFDia wrote:
About the new table:
I like the new table, but I still thing the intensity of the last blow should be considered (as the old SWR table does)
In my 50F campaign, I use the SWEX table with a houserule, that 5+ wounds lead to instant death and all of the characters who died (I guess around 5 guys), died from this houserule.


I bet! After all, that was why we changed it in the first place. Wink 5+ wound rolls are guaranteed to occur sometime to everyone, and Soaking it isn't really a viable option.

AFDia wrote:
Or in other words: Although I have played more SWEX sessions than SWR sessions (not only 50F), I have never seen somebody dying by the new table, but many players died by the SWR table. I hope this statistic will change with the new table (although I will still use my 5+ wounds houserule)


I'd expect a pretty noticeable change. The average Wild Card (d6 Vigor and Spirit) is about 18 times more likely to die instantly when Incapacitated by the new table than the old one (ignoring Edges or spending Bennies to reroll). Savage! Twisted Evil
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AFDia
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
AFDia wrote:
First of all a question to Clint:
Is it still possible to make a Healing roll to stabilize a hero after this hero has succeeded his Spirit roll but before the hero has succeeded the following Vigor rolls?

It is not mentioned anymore (neither is the "bleeding out" part)


Actually, I don't think it was mentioned before, but yeah.


Thanks for the clarification!

Clint wrote:
AFDia wrote:
About the new table:
I like the new table, but I still thing the intensity of the last blow should be considered (as the old SWR table does)
In my 50F campaign, I use the SWEX table with a houserule, that 5+ wounds lead to instant death and all of the characters who died (I guess around 5 guys), died from this houserule.


I bet! After all, that was why we changed it in the first place. Wink 5+ wound rolls are guaranteed to occur sometime to everyone, and Soaking it isn't really a viable option.


Of course they can try to soak enough wounds to end up with less than 5, but it's still a brutal rule.
I guess my players and I like a brutal game and the rule is used on players and enemies, therefore it's fair and we don't intend to change it. Twisted Evil

Though we will upgrade to the new (IMO better) incapacitation table. Smile
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Lord Inar
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it's just the kind of groups I play in, but we've had three deaths in our few Deadlands sessions and two in our Shaintar, along with several aborted deaths (I just let them reroll) when playing with the kids, all using the SW:EX rules.

Usually the deaths occur because they're tapped out on bennies, which makes thematic sense, they've used their last bit of luck and now it caught up with them.

Maybe we play rougher games than we give ourselves credit for!
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77IM
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FYI, for the not-very-mathematically-inclined, it looks like, considering the -3 wound penalty, a person with d6 Vigor and d6 Spirit has around a 49% chance of instant death (70% chance of failing the Vigor check x 70% chance of failing the Spirit check). And, those with bennies can spend them on whichever check is better for them (Vigor or Spirit). So, that seems pretty reasonable.

-- 77IM


EDIT: Corrected the maths, thanks to FoxBlue. I had 36% chance of death due to 60% chance of failing each roll. D'oh!


Last edited by 77IM on Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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FoxBlue
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wouldn't the -3 penalty make the probability for failure closer to 70% with d6 + Wild die? Bringing us closer to a 49% chance of instant death?

Still no complaints. If I want a less deadly game without going straight to cinematic I think I'll still use the old table, but I like the new one a lot.

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77IM
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right. It turns out I'm not-very-mathematically-inclined myself!

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luisto
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: New Incapacitation Table Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
However, as a lot of you are aware, one of the most common Setting Rules in SW are variations on Incapacitation, from the Recurring Roles of Necessary Evil to the Gritty Damage rules for The Moscow Connection. A GM should always consider the role of Incapacitation on the feel of a setting and the game.


Are there going to be any recommendations on the appropriate Incapacitation tweaks to apply to the different Savage Settings? Maybe this change makes specific settings more deadly than the author intended...

Luis
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: New Incapacitation Table Reply with quote

luisto wrote:
Clint wrote:
However, as a lot of you are aware, one of the most common Setting Rules in SW are variations on Incapacitation, from the Recurring Roles of Necessary Evil to the Gritty Damage rules for The Moscow Connection. A GM should always consider the role of Incapacitation on the feel of a setting and the game.


Are there going to be any recommendations on the appropriate Incapacitation tweaks to apply to the different Savage Settings? Maybe this change makes specific settings more deadly than the author intended...

Luis


For some, I don't see this; look at 50Fathoms, Rippers, Tour of Darkness, Solomon Kane, DL:R, RunePunk, Evernight, (the original Necropolis) and Shaintar (just to note what's on my shelf). All of them predate (for the most part) SW:EX and its incapacitation table. I don't really see how that would change things. Settings like Sundered Skies (don't see much change there either) wouldn't change, but others would have those rules to "soften" the incapacitation table, like Slipstream and Necessary Evil.

And I'm sure Realms of Cthulhu or Weird Wars II or Necropolis 2350 would follow the errated INC table. Are there specific settings in which you see a problem?

Don
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
I'd expect a pretty noticeable change. The average Wild Card (d6 Vigor and Spirit) is about 18 times more likely to die instantly when Incapacitated by the new table than the old one (ignoring Edges or spending Bennies to reroll). Savage! Twisted Evil


Could you provide numbers for this one? Also, while it may appear to scare some off, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind also stating that while the chance of an average wild card (d6 in Vigor and Spirit) has gone up by a factor of 18 compared to the previous table, the game has not become 18 times more difficult. I think some posters find that number scary rather than the entirety of the quote.

Don
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to agree with Inar. I have seen pleanty of deaths while using the original SWEX table. A couple of times were TPK's. Once those bennies are gone it gets rough. #gunbattle

Maybe we just don't give out as many bennies in-game as some others do.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with the old SWEX table was the marginal chance to die instantly. Only snake eyes lead to instant death (a chance of 2.78% for a d6 Vigor guy and 2.08% for a d8 Vigor guy).

So only every ~40th time you roll on the incapacitation table, you will really die. Every other result can be avoided by using Healing on the character to stabilize him. If the player saves a benny for this roll, it's nearly impossible to die instantly.

With the new table and if Clints 18x deadlier is true, every second to third time you roll on the table, you will really die. That is much more appropriate, I think. Wink

And for those guys who don't want to die, there is still the possibility to take the "Hard to Kill" edge which is still damn powerful!
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Clint
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadd4d wrote:
Clint wrote:
I'd expect a pretty noticeable change. The average Wild Card (d6 Vigor and Spirit) is about 18 times more likely to die instantly when Incapacitated by the new table than the old one (ignoring Edges or spending Bennies to reroll). Savage! Twisted Evil


Could you provide numbers for this one? Also, while it may appear to scare some off, I was wondering if you wouldn't mind also stating that while the chance of an average wild card (d6 in Vigor and Spirit) has gone up by a factor of 18 compared to the previous table, the game has not become 18 times more difficult. I think some posters find that number scary rather than the entirety of the quote.


Actually, someone kind of already did the numbers above. As someone noted, for a character with both a d6 in Vigor and Spirit and no other factors, there is about a 49% chance of dying instantly if having to roll for Incapacitation. Actually, it's a little less than that and more like 48.2%

Now, originally, said character only had a 1 in 36 chance of instant death, which equates to about a 2.78% chance. Divide odd of one into the other, and thats 17.36 times more likely to be specific.

Yeah, I understand it sounds big, but really that's because the old odds were so small. Each die type increase of Vigor or Spirit drops those odds by a little more than 5% on average, going from 48.2% down to 17.4% for having a d12 in both.
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Enpeze
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good change. I like it.

Maybe if you ever print a SWEX2 you could probably mention 3 optional ways to play the wound and incap subsystem in order to help people to use it with different settings. thanks.

eg.
-heroic (old swex table)
-standard (swex with the new update)
-gritty. (swex and the crime city rules)
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, I can't find the new table... #1eek13
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bagger245
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's in here..

http://www.peginc.com/Downloads/Errata/PEG10010SWEX2PErrata.pdf
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