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Skills question.
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The GIT!
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merlin_Sylver wrote:
IBut then again, I have my own problems with SW's round timing system; as a firearms afficiando, I can attest that I can squeeze off way more than one bullet in sex seconds. Sure, I will lose some accuracy by firing so quickly, but not much. Additionally, I've been trained in an americal grappling art, and within 6 seconds there may be as many as a dozen 'Fighting rolls', and advantage can shift back and forth quickly. I'm not very good at striking arts, but I know I can throw more than one punch in six seconds....

Well, if that bothers you so much just change the length of a combat round. Don't look at them as rules, rather as guidelines (spoken as a true pirate Wink ).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merlin_Sylver wrote:
But then again, I have my own problems with SW's round timing system; as a firearms afficiando, I can attest that I can squeeze off way more than one bullet in sex seconds. Sure, I will lose some accuracy by firing so quickly, but not much. Additionally, I've been trained in an americal grappling art, and within 6 seconds there may be as many as a dozen 'Fighting rolls', and advantage can shift back and forth quickly. I'm not very good at striking arts, but I know I can throw more than one punch in six seconds....


How many punches can you throw in six seconds, while talking to a buddy, while running up to twenty-four yards, and while doing any other countless number of free actions? A roll doesn't really fill up a round, but it is generally the mathematical approximation of the dramatic highlight of what occurs in those six seconds.
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Merlin_Sylver
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Well, if that bothers you so much just change the length of a combat round. Don't look at them as rules, rather as guidelines (spoken as a true pirate ).


Actually, I did! In my games the combat round is only 3 seconds long, and added a couple of edges that allow semi-auto firearms to be fired multiple times in a round, at recoil penalties.

Quote:
How many punches can you throw in six seconds, while talking to a buddy, while running up to twenty-four yards, and while doing any other countless number of free actions?


Running is another matter... as far as I understand it there are certain actions you can only take if you are standing still, and attacking multiple times in a round would definitely be one of those situations. A little movement would be fine, but running would be hard to pull off. Myself, if I only need to move within six paces of someone, could probably squeeze off at least two... and I'm not a very good striker.
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Harboe
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merlin_Sylver wrote:
But then again, I have my own problems with SW's round timing system; as a firearms afficiando, I can attest that I can squeeze off way more than one bullet in sex seconds. Sure, I will lose some accuracy by firing so quickly, but not much. Additionally, I've been trained in an americal grappling art, and within 6 seconds there may be as many as a dozen 'Fighting rolls', and advantage can shift back and forth quickly. I'm not very good at striking arts, but I know I can throw more than one punch in six seconds....


Depending on the setting, there's two explanations:
1) It's Pulp! A good punch to the jaw and the guy's out. A single shot and the guy is either down or unscathed. You wouldn't ever see the main villain running from the protagonist... at which point he pulls out his heavy machinegun and fires several hundred bullets in a "few" seconds, leaving a mangled corpse. It's just not cinematic enough.

OR

2) It's a simplification. When you're grappling, a round isn't just one move. The advantage can change by the second, but by the end of that round whoever won the roll had the advantage.
Likewise, you might've fired one, two, eight or threehundredandseventeen bullets, but for mechanics purposes you fired "one unit of bullets" and roll for that. Also, note: double-tap and three-round bursting is already in there.
As for striking arts, I dare say that in 6 seconds, most fights between skilled individuals will have been decided (this is the "anything goes" sort of fight, obviously), based on my own experiences.

---

Finally, on-topic.

I've never had a problem with Persuasion/Taunt/Intimidate. They come up quite often, moreso than combat skills, regardless of campaign type, so it just makes sense.
Now, Throwing has been used so little that we've practically forgotten about it. Of course, when you're using ray guns, machine guns (or, as in one case, your primary offensive tactic is to call the police), the skill seems superfluous. We didn't get rid of it, though. Just never used it...
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kreider204
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Harboe wrote:

Now, Throwing has been used so little that we've practically forgotten about it. Of course, when you're using ray guns, machine guns (or, as in one case, your primary offensive tactic is to call the police), the skill seems superfluous. We didn't get rid of it, though. Just never used it...


I've seen at least one person house rule Throwing away, and just use shooting for both. You could even just rename it "Missile Weapons" if you wanted to.

Just a thought.
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Merlin_Sylver
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Depending on the setting, there's two explanations:
1) It's Pulp! A good punch to the jaw and the guy's out. A single shot and the guy is either down or unscathed. You wouldn't ever see the main villain running from the protagonist... at which point he pulls out his heavy machinegun and fires several hundred bullets in a "few" seconds, leaving a mangled corpse. It's just not cinematic enough.


I agree to all of that, except that what about those scenes where the hero dives out from cover, blasting with both pistols? I daresay that much of Quentin Tarantino's movies are cinematic... Reservoir Dogs as an example. Where are the bullet festivals?

OR

Quote:
2) It's a simplification. When you're grappling, a round isn't just one move. The advantage can change by the second, but by the end of that round whoever won the roll had the advantage.
Likewise, you might've fired one, two, eight or threehundredandseventeen bullets, but for mechanics purposes you fired "one unit of bullets" and roll for that. Also, note: double-tap and three-round bursting is already in there.


Aye, I see that there has been a stab at giving us those bullet-festivals.. and I see that if I alterd my gaming style a bit, I could easily describe single shooting rolls as whole hails of hot lead... but that would take away two things I love to use to balance firearms:
1. I often give my PC"s special ammo, but only a limited amount. Playing by a 'one shot, one roll' rule allows me to use resources as a means of controlling the party.
2. I like to keep track of how many bullets have been fired for the purpose of reloading. How many times in a movie has someone missed an action because they were out of ammo, and had to grab some from a nearby mate? "Make 'em count!" Right?

Quote:
As for striking arts, I dare say that in 6 seconds, most fights between skilled individuals will have been decided (this is the "anything goes" sort of fight, obviously), based on my own experiences.


Quite right. Take the rules out, and someone will hurt the other badly within the first ten seconds of the fight, nearly every time.

Quote:
Now, Throwing has been used so little that we've practically forgotten about it. Of course, when you're using ray guns, machine guns (or, as in one case, your primary offensive tactic is to call the police), the skill seems superfluous. We didn't get rid of it, though. Just never used it...

What about fusion grenades? Tossing weapons to mates who've lost their own? In my games, the players generally make at least one or two good throwing rolls each session, often not even as a combat situation.
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FoxBlue
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know, throwing tends to see a lot of use in my fantasy game but then we have a "ninja" and a spear fighter so that might have something to do with it. In other settings I can see rolling it up with shooting, if the group is expected to use grenades at all I'd keep the skill though.

Back to the social skills. I've found that taunt, intimidate and persuasion come up enough in my games to justify them being separate skills. Not to mention, they serve different purposes and are based on different attributes. Taunt and Intimidate are generally combat skills, you could almost rename them "test of will: smarts" and "test of will: spirit", combining them would be confusing because then you would have to chose an attribute to base the skill on and which attribute it can target. If you say that it can be based on either but can only target the one it is based on you wont have changed anything. Persuasion has another role altogether it is essentially your "diplomacy" skill and is therefore non combat by definition.

Another issue with rolling those up would be applying charisma, you'd have to:

-Apply it everywhere, which has really weird effects on tests of will (suddenly your ugly brawler can't intimidate and your attractive healer can...).

-Apply it no where, which would mean it only applies to streetwise (hey, remember why charisma was your dump stat in dnd...).

-Apply it only out of combat , which still has weird effects on tests of will.

-Apply it on a case by case basis... More work and players may find it a bit arbitrary, after all this is something they spent an edge on.

If I wanted to do something like this I might roll up spirit based social skills (persuasion and intimidate) and smarts based social skills (streetwise and taunt) and only apply the charisma bonus outside of combat.

Not sure what I would name them though.

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Merlin_Sylver
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If I wanted to do something like this I might roll up spirit based social skills (persuasion and intimidate) and smarts based social skills (streetwise and taunt) and only apply the charisma bonus outside of combat.

Not sure what I would name them though.


Persuasion/Intimidate would be Manipulation. I don't think you could actually make Streetwise a social skill, though... as far as I understood it, Streetwise operates much more like a knowledge skill, than a social skill. Streetwise tells you where the criminals are, determine the 'street value' of something, or track down black market goods... none of which actually lends itself to the Taunt attempts.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always read streetwise as your skill for gathering information from people as opposed to investigation which is research. And your charisma applies to it so it can really not be a social skill. Anyways, I was grouping more based on the linked attribute than anything else, generally I prefer the skills as they are.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merlin_Sylver wrote:

1. I often give my PC"s special ammo, but only a limited amount. Playing by a 'one shot, one roll' rule allows me to use resources as a means of controlling the party.
2. I like to keep track of how many bullets have been fired for the purpose of reloading. How many times in a movie has someone missed an action because they were out of ammo, and had to grab some from a nearby mate? "Make 'em count!" Right?


You could make "Hail of Bullets" an option: -1 attack/+2 damage, but costs 1d4 shots. You can combine it with double tap, which costs 1d4+1 shots, but not with 3RB.

This way when someone says, "Yeah, I can totally shoot a revolver multiple times in six seconds! So why can't I double-tap my .44?" you can offer to let them to do a Hail of Bullets.

Hmm, maybe I will add this one to the House Rules file...

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

You could make "Hail of Bullets" an option: -1 attack/+2 damage, but costs 1d4 shots. You can combine it with double tap, which costs 1d4+1 shots, but not with 3RB.

This way when someone says, "Yeah, I can totally shoot a revolver multiple times in six seconds! So why can't I double-tap my .44?" you can offer to let them to do a Hail of Bullets.

Hmm, maybe I will add this one to the House Rules file...

-- 77IM


Hey, I really like that! *scribbles this rule into my copy of the core rules*
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77IM
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've revised it somewhat (I've been thinking about it a lot since I expect it to come up in my Zombie Run game soon; one of my players is a gun nut and doesn't understand why you can only fire a revolver once per round).

Hail of Bullets: You can fire a firearm wildly, squeezing off more than one shot in a round, even if it has a rate of fire of 1. This gives you +1 damage (or +2 on a raise), and costs 1d4+1 rounds of ammunition (if you don't have enough, you still attack but don't get any damage bonuses). This can't be combined with other options for firing multiple times (like double-tap or full auto).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really see the advantage of that over double tap. I know that not all weapons can double tap but that seems like a rather small benefit for the cost. Maybe you could tweak fanning the hammer from deadlands to do this.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's deliberately inferior to double tap, for use by people who insist on fast-firing their revolver or shotgun.

How does fanning the hammer work? Is there already a rule for this situation?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fanning the Hammer is where you take a revolver and slap the hammer with your hand in quick succession... in Deadlands, they impose a -4 penalty on the shooting rolls, but you roll them separately. I was actually just thinking about converting this rule from fanning the hammer to something very like your "Hail of Bullets'. Either way, you've all been of immeasurable help in this matter.. it's ben something thats bugged me for some time, and now I've got ways of fixing it that don't break thea game.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

77IM wrote:
I've revised it somewhat (I've been thinking about it a lot since I expect it to come up in my Zombie Run game soon; one of my players is a gun nut and doesn't understand why you can only fire a revolver once per round).


Just to clarify, Zombie Run would tend to have modern double-action revolvers which are semi-automatic and can be "fired twice" (i.e. they can Double Tap).
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77IM
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint wrote:
Just to clarify, Zombie Run would tend to have modern double-action revolvers which are semi-automatic and can be "fired twice" (i.e. they can Double Tap).

Thanks! This makes a bit more sense (and makes revolvers more competitive, balance-wise, with semi-auto pistols).

Is this listed in the rules anywhere? None of the revolvers in my SW:EX list semi-auto or double-tap and there aren't specific gun rules in Zombie Run.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Merlin_Sylver wrote:
Fanning the Hammer is where you take a revolver and slap the hammer with your hand in quick succession... in Deadlands, they impose a -4 penalty on the shooting rolls, but you roll them separately.


2 things: 1) each bullet is a die, and you roll them all plus the wild die. If I fan 6 shots, I roll 6 dice plus a wild die, which can only sub for one.

2) Someone over at another forum brought this up, and I suggested an edge that increases the rate of fire of a weapon. Call it Carnival of Carnage, you need AGL d8, Shooting d8 and Rock n' Roll; if you don't move, you increase the rate of fire of the weapon you use by one.

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77IM
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadd4d wrote:
2) Someone over at another forum brought this up, and I suggested an edge that increases the rate of fire of a weapon. Call it Carnival of Carnage, you need AGL d8, Shooting d8 and Rock n' Roll; if you don't move, you increase the rate of fire of the weapon you use by one.

I'm considering that angle too, although my version has the more boring name of Rapid Shot (& Improved Rapid Shot). ...Maybe I should call it Gun Nut?

The nice thing about house rules is that there are so many out there to choose from! ;}

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

77IM wrote:
Is this listed in the rules anywhere? None of the revolvers in my SW:EX list semi-auto or double-tap and there aren't specific gun rules in Zombie Run.


It comes up in Deadlands where both kinds of actions are prevalent, but it's more of a setting thing based on revolver tech. Also, as I recall, most or all of the revolvers in SWEX are single action because all the weapons are listed with stats based on the time of their original introduction (though I think the S&W 44 and 357 have mostly been double action; not 100% sure there).
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