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Prescience [NE]
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Judge Holden
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Prescience [NE] Reply with quote

Prescience (4)

Trappings: milky white eyes, far away stare, desert dwelling nomads

Your character has the ability to see into the future and translate what she finds there. The future is constantly changing however and the translation of what she sees may not always be accurate.

You may freeze your character into a particular timestream by concentrating upon that time-thread and willing it to become reality. When the character does this she may keep whatever action card she has in front of her for as long as she desires. This works for Jokers as well, simply shuffle the deck without replacing the joker. The character may also manipulate the timelines around themselves and attempt to change the future, this sometimes has dangerous consequences. With a Smarts roll the prescient may rearrange any two Action Cards (four with a raise) for any combination of allies or foes (including herself) as she sees fit. Cards must be moved before anyone acts in each round. Edges (such as Quick) take effect after the cards are moved. On a critical failure roll the character sees their own death and cannot avoid it. They will die sometime during the session (GMs choice)


Modifiers (+2): Can affect others. You can choose anyone else and have them keep their action card for as long as you concentrate upon them. Concentration in this case only inflicts a -1 penalty on the character.


I just re-read Dune and wanted to try this out as a Necessary Evil Power and get some feedback.

Is the cost too high, or too low?

How about my wording, am I missing anything?

I took the idea for the mechanics from a combination of the spells Freeze Pattern and Precognition in the Fantasy Tool kit
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, for 4 PP, I can keep any card (including a Joker) I want in front of me forever, and if anyone else gets the Joker first, I can steal it with a Smarts roll where the only downside is death on an unrerolled critfail?

That's a little bit too strong. That is, unless the character is extremely unlucky, the ability to move whenever he wants, without fear of interruption, with +2 to every roll, every single round. If he's extremely unlucky, it's *only* the ability to move first every single round until he steals a Joker.

And, the problem with the "death on a critfail" thing is that it's unlikely to ever come up. You're never going to use this power without a Benny or two in store, and critfails are already very rare. Worse, once you steal a Joker, you're going to be able to store up your Bennies and not use them nearly as often, because +2 to everything all the time and the ability to interrupt everyone, at will, means I'll be needing a LOT fewer rerolls.

I say it's way, way, way too strong. I don't, in fact, think it *can* be balanced, regardless of cost.

An alternate thought:
For 4 points: At the start of every round, after all action-card-afecting Edges are resolved, trade action cards with one other person or group of your choice. This power never affects Jokers - people with Jokers, including you, never trade. You also can't steal the card of anyone who is On Hold from the previous round. You MUST trade if at all possible, even if you have the highest card.
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Judge Holden
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You only get to keep the card for the duration of combat, that is something I thought was implied but I should possibly make more clear. Also, you can't just take a joker from the deck it has to be on the table.

Maybe if you have to be on hold at the start of the turn when you 'change the timestream' and also change the Smarts roll to a versus check. Would that help balance it? What about a natural 1 on the Smarts roll for Death?
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2009 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You only get to keep the card for the duration of combat, that is something I thought was implied but I should possibly make more clear. Also, you can't just take a joker from the deck it has to be on the table.


No, both of those things were quite clear.

But, on each round of combat, I roll Smarts and trade my current card for the highest card, or I keep my existing card with no roll because it is highest already. As soon as a Joker comes up, I roll Smarts and steal it, keeping it for the rest of the combat. And not only do I keep it, but I make sure that there's now a 1/53 chance instead of 1/26 of anyone ELSE getting a Joker to keep up with me.

Quote:
Maybe if you have to be on hold at the start of the turn when you 'change the timestream'


That's a start - but it makes 10% of your total power points, ever, is devoted to a power that's only useful if you park yourself, take cover, and sit until a Joker comes up - and which then gives you a joker every round for the rest of the fight while denying a Joker to other people. Which tends, to me, to mean that either people will *not* use this power and they'll have wasted 10% of their full total power points *ever*, or they will use this power and they'll just sit out combat as much as they can until they get to use it to steal a Joker.

Why not take Gloater? Major Hindrance, and I'm going to spend the first round of combat doing nothing *anyway* because I want to steal cards on round 2 - why not get rewarded for it?

As well: If I'm on hold at the start of the round to steal a card, what card does the victim get? And what stops me from stealing the top revealed card immediately, then having my choice of acting or not for the rest of the round *exactly as if I'd stayed on hold* but after re-arranging everyone else's cards?

Quote:
and also change the Smarts roll to a versus check. Would that help balance it?


That makes it *harder* to steal the Joker, but doesn't change the effect of stealing the Joker. It means that the person is likely to pay a couple of points to get Smarts D12+2 or so, and at that point they're seriously unlikely to lose against 99% of the rest of the game.

Quote:
What about a natural 1 on the Smarts roll for Death?


That makes it cost more Bennies, certainly, and that might restrict the number of people who use it immediately for high-card every round, but it's still very, very strong when you steal that Joker.

That restriction may make people much less likely to TAKE the power, but for those that take it, it's still strong.

I like my version better. It lets you act at the point of your choosing every round, with the drawbacks that:
A) you can't steal a Joker
B) you can't steal from people who are on Hold from last round (and so didn't GET a new card)
C) you *have* to swap, and so if you do pull the high card, your power works against you for this round. Maybe slightly against you (you trade your K for a friend's 10) or maybe a lot (you give the enemy a K and take his 2 because that's the only one you're eligible to grab)

As a bonus, you can trade with allies - if you get a high card and are in a safe place, you can give it to a friend and take his low card, maybe helping him out. It's a very versatile trick, for your 4 points.
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Winsling
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem I see with the Joker isn't the +2 (nice as it is), it's the edges that double damage when you have a Joker. Team him up with one or two people who blow through the deck, and it's abusive.

At a more basic level, I don't see how the flavor matches the mechanics. Making Paul in NE would mostly be defining his trappings as precognitive abilities. The Golden Path isn't reflected, but that's more a role playing effect than a mechanical one - seeing it defined his motivations more than what he could do.

I'd probably try to take a precognitive power in a different direction. Possibly the precog ambushes at the start of every combat, or he gets to assign the cards to his willing allies - the GM hands him the appropriate number of cards, he looks at them, and distributes them. As a bonus, these aren't tied to the trappings - Batman could have the former, and a tactical leader like Captain America could have the latter.
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't even considered Mighty Blow or Dead Shot. Uh, yeah, absolutely, those are bad enough on their own without this.

And it's not *just* the +2 to everything (which is worth WAY more than 4 points on it's own) - it's the ability to move at the time of your own choice every round, without the possibility of being interrupted, the ability to interrupt anyone, AND the restriction that keeps other people from getting a Joker as often.
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Judge Holden
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats what I'm here for gentlemen. Thanks for the input so far. It always helps to have different minds coming at a new idea to try and find the exploits and weaknesses.

So I think it can be safely said that
a) being able to snatch a Joker from someone else, even with an opposed roll is far too great a power.
b) There are Wild Card edges that would make this already powerful idea into a very unbalanced power combination.
c) the ability to distribute cards as the character sees fit is not unbalanced if they cannot do so with Jokers.

I'm going to try a rewrite to this. One of the mistakes I think I made was taking two different Spells and combining them as written. Like I say, thats why I brought it here. Thanks guys, I'm gonna think it through some more and then repost it later to get some more feedback.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a question; could the desired effect be explained a bit more? In short, ignoring mechanics, what is the power supposed to do?
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Judge Holden
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prescience is the ability to see into the future. The future is not a specific linear path. There are many possible futures. The Prescient has the ability to see which outcome is most likely, and they can to some extent manipulate the actual outcome by making choices that will have a high probability of bringing about that outcome.

The power never tells the actual outcome of the future (The Montreal Canadiens are gonna win the Cup this year!) but it can give probabilities that the character can interpret. In dune it is described somewhat like a piece of cloth being blown in the wind with the viewer standing on one end of it. The other end is flapping and moving in a pattern, but it is never steady and sometimes you cannot even see the end of it beneath the folds.

For literary examples I am thinking Maud'ib from Dune and Destiny from Freedom force.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judge Holden wrote:
The Prescient has the ability to see which outcome is most likely, and they can to some extent manipulate the actual outcome by making choices that will have a high probability of bringing about that outcome.


Okay, sorry I was unclear; what I'm looking for are more specific examples of the above. What effect does it have; what does it actually do?

I mean, in the example of Paul, it's kind of the Power of Plot, setting long term events in motion to achieve a final result. That doesn't really translate well to a game. Wink

In the short term though, what actual effect does it have. For instance, Paul and Destiny are both able to "see" through use of the power, and thus that pretty clearly leads to Awareness (Danger Sense is kind of a given there too).

That's kind of what I'm looking for if that helps.
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not the OP, obviously.

I suspect the goal is:

By seeing the possible future, your character has an advantage in terms of predicting what will happen, and gains the ability to react to things before they occur. With effort, you can choose one of multiple possible futures and force it to come to pass.

Meaning, Awareness/Danger Sense is an excellent power to take to avoid attacks Spider-Sense style, but I think he wants a more extended version - you're not just harder to hit because of a MOMENTARY glimpse of the future, you're actually likely to have seconds in which to act - causing you to win init much more often, to be able to react and move behind cover before the guy who is going to shoot you has even consciously decided to do so, etc.

So: A character with this power will win init far more often than he "should" because he can see what's coming. He will know a round in advance that a fight is going to start, or that there is a trap around that corner that he will run into if he doesn't jump over the tripwire. He will be able to see that by starting that car, a bomb will go off, and he will know in advance that his friend is about to say something REALLY stupid and the girl he's talking to will slap him and walk off.

That's what I think this character can do. In fact, have you seen No Heroics? The guy whose power is to see 60 seconds into the future seems like a walking (if relatively high-powered in comparison) example of what this guy should be capable of.

Also:
Quote:
One of the mistakes I think I made was taking two different Spells and combining them as written


Well, the keeping-cards one is already strong, and it costs:
A) an Edge to learn
B) an action and a Spellcasting Roll to use
C) power points to cast
D) power points to maintain.

In NE, as an always-on or at-will power that doesn't even take an action? Yow!
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Clint
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tuesday wrote:
So: A character with this power will win init far more often than he "should" because he can see what's coming.


So... Super Edge (Level Headed) and Super Edge (Improved Level Headed) with the trapping "sees it coming?"

Tuesday wrote:
He will know a round in advance that a fight is going to start, or that there is a trap around that corner that he will run into if he doesn't jump over the tripwire. He will be able to see that by starting that car, a bomb will go off, and he will know in advance that his friend is about to say something REALLY stupid and the girl he's talking to will slap him and walk off.


Hmm, kind of like, "The character also gets a Smarts roll to detect ambushes or hidden dangers." except perhaps for the friend's comment which isn't so much a "danger."

Really, Danger Sense just inflicts a -4 penalty to be hit; the trappings determine whether it is Spiderman like reflexes or that the character saw that someone might try to attack them in the future and just happened to position themselves in a place where at that time that person would have a -4 penalty to hit them.

To me, the best way to mimic affecting the future is to simply reverse cause and effect. The character sees the future, so they can find cover or know smoke will pass in between the two characters or a car alarm will distract the person right when the shot happens; ultimately, the exact cause is variable, but the effect is that they are harder to hit, and that's easy to do in the rules.

Another good power for this is Jinx. Your opponents suffer mishaps, misfires, etc... That's the effect; the cause is seeing a potential future where that could happen and making a minor adjustment so it does. In game though, the effect happens now and the trapping is that the cause was initiated earlier.
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Judge Holden
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I like Tuesdays answer but then after reading Clint's response I have to be honest and say I just like the game mechanic of being able to swap cards. When I was reading Dune I thought to myself 'hey thats like that spell!' and then looked it up and poached it. So the most honest answer is probably that I want to use the Freeze Pattern and Precognition spells and convert them into powers.

here's my second stab at it


Prescience (5)

Trappings: 'The sleeper has AWAKEN!!!'

Your character has the ability to see into the future and translate what she finds there. The future is constantly changing however and the translation of what she sees may not always be accurate.


The Golden Path: You may freeze your character into a particular timestream by concentrating upon that time-thread and willing it to become reality. When the character does this she may keep whatever action card she has in front of her for as long as she desires. This works for Jokers as well, simply shuffle the deck without replacing the joker.


Nexus Point: The character may attempt to manipulate the timelines around themselves and effect the future path of others as well. As an action the character may make a Smarts roll to arrange any two remaining Action Cards (four with a raise) on the table for any combination of allies or foes (including herself) as she sees fit. This is an opposed roll against the targets Agility or their Smarts (targets choice) if they wish to resist. In this case Jokers and Twos may not be manipulated. If the character is on Hold, they may exchange their on hold card at face value for another. On a natural roll of one the character sees their own death and can do little to avoid it. They are immediately hit with a raise by the next attack that comes their way. If the character is in melee and a friend is shooting into the melee they will automatically be hit by this attack instead of the target. If the character critically fails on the Smarts roll they will die sometime during the session (GMs choice as to when, hopefully something heroic and meaningful).


Modifiers (+2): Can affect others. You can choose anyone else and have them keep their action card for as long as you concentrate upon them. Concentration inflicts a -2 multi action penalty on the character.
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Clint
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judge Holden wrote:
Well I like Tuesdays answer but then after reading Clint's response I have to be honest and say I just like the game mechanic of being able to swap cards.


Well, I've got to admire your honesty. Wink

Good luck with it!
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clint: I thought about those super-Edges, but figured they really didn't seem
A) powerful enough to properly reflect the person who can really see a fair bit into the future. I think The Judge is looking for something a bit stronger than just "draw 3, keep the best", which is, technically, still the realm of mortals. I'd be much more likely to say "costs 2 points, gives Fast As Lightning, the Legendary Edge from Deadlands".
B) worth 4 points. [1]

Judge: Holding a Joker in front of you, *especially* when Dead Shot and Mighty Blow exist, is still way too strong.

If I may suggest: "If you use this ability to hold a Joker, it turns into the Ace Of Spades. Immediately. No +2 to rolls, no interruptions without a roll, not even for a single round - but you get to move first ahead of everyone else who doesn't have a Joker or the Ace Of Spades for the rest of combat, and isn't that worth SOMETHING?"

Also: Reshuffle the joker, just like you would for a guy On Hold. It's important to leave all 54 cards in the action deck. Seriously.

As well:
Quote:
As an action the character may make a Smarts roll to arrange any two remaining Action Cards (four with a raise) on the table for any combination of allies or foes (including herself) as she sees fit.


If you spend an action to swap *your own* card, what happens?

No, really, I don't understand how that's supposed to work.

Quote:
If the character is on Hold, they may exchange their on hold card at face value for another.


People who are On Hold *don't have cards*. They're simply On Hold, meaning they can take their action any time they want.


[1]: No, really, am I the *only* person who thinks that Super-Edge is too expensive and the most Edges would be better served to be worth 1 point? Take *really good* Edges like Marksman - for 2 PP, I can up my shooting die by *4* die types all the time, which almost certainly gets me *at least* a +2 on all Shooting rolls, or I can take Marksman and get +2 on Shooting rolls when I don't move and I can't get an Aim bonus on top. If my Shooting is already D12, for 2 points I can get +2 all the time with no restrictions AND I can buy two more levels of other skills or a point of Armor or a dozen other things, too.
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HaraldKlak
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While playing Rippers where Witches Bile potions give you the effect of swapping cards I have to say that I really believe it can be a game-breaking ability. A lot of encounters was simply too easy, when the first thing you did was to throw a 2 in the head of the major bad guy. Often the enemy will be considerably weakened during a full round.
In Rippers it is limited by the amount of witches you encounter (though one scenario let us meet 11 of them, giving us a ridiculous amount).

As a power you can use as often as you like, I think it will hurt the balance of the game, but if you are going to try it out, I'll be happy to hear how it went.

Another thing I don't quite understand: Swapping cards as an action during a round. What do you do, if the friend/foe is faster than you, and already has used his action? What if you give someone a card, that already has come up?

If you go ahead with it, I think it should be an action to use, and then granting you the ability to swap cards the next round when cards are dealt.
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Judge Holden
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can only change cards with a person who hasn't gone yet, so it's only the cards remaining on the table. I know that an On Hold Card is no longer a card I thought that it was a common enough convention that you simply keep your card facedown in front of you. So when you swap your On Hold Card with someone else, you flip it up and hand it to the person you are swapping with. They either go On Hold if the order of the cards has already passed by or they get the card at face value if it still hasn't been called.

I think maybe the whole power should have the 'no jokers, no 2s' exception. It really would be crazy to let someone with Deadly blow to get a Joker and then sit there with a Joker for the whole Combat.

Although maybe I should just drop one aspect or the other from the power, either keep the freeze pattern or keep the precognition but not combine them.
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Tuesday
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I meant was, I take an action to swap my card with the card of someone who hasn't gone yet.

Meaning, they now have my card (and go NOW) and I now have their card (and go later) - except that I've just *taken an action*.

Does that mean I just lose my card?

Do I have a multi-action penalty when my new card comes up?

Do I have to declare all my potential actions (complete with MAP on the card-swap roll) before swapping cards, but then wait for them to happen?


Alternately, I swap my card with that of someone who is on hold - leaving aside that they don't really have a card at all, this means that they now act immediately - and they can just go back on Hold and toss away the cards I gave them, so I've done *nothing* to affect them. I take their "card" in turn, which, since it is on Hold, means I can go at any time after the present - meaning, nothing changes for *me*, either - but, again, I have just taken an action and you have all the same multi-action penalty questions from above.

Swapping the cards of two other people makes a bit more sense - but then we have the *incredible* issue of me "locking" myself to an Ace, and then ensuring that the bad guys always move last for the rest of the fight as I give them the lowest card available and trade higher ones to my allies. Worse, it's impossible for them to go On Hold effectively - if they do, I simply move first in the round (locked to an Ace) and swap their "On Hold" for the lowest card my allies have, causing my ally to be On Hold instead and them to move last with no chance to interrupt from being On Hold.

If you're going to swap cards around, it really has to
A) happen immediately at the start of the round, before anyone, even a Joker, acts
and
B) either not take an Action, cost you your entire Action, or not require a roll - causing a -2 MAP to any actions you take when your card comes up is fine, but not if you have to calculate whatever actions you *want* to take later in the round into your roll to figure out when you take them.
and
C) not affect people On Hold.

Anything else is going to create massive headaches, abusable situations, and general badness.
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UmbraLux
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judge Holden wrote:
You can only change cards with a person who hasn't gone yet...
Doesn't that mean the action effectively makes the character slower? Everyone faster than you has already taken their turn or gone on hold, either way the card appears to be unavailable for selection. It's still useful for ensuring your allies go before any enemies but I don't see any way to take the Joker from someone else given the way you've worded it.
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Judge Holden
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It's still useful for ensuring your allies go before any enemies but I don't see any way to take the Joker from someone else given the way you've worded it.


yes, the intention is that you cannot swap Jokers or 2s with the Nexus Point. In my second stab at this write up my intention was that you could still hold onto the Joker once you had been dealt it, but you couldn't steal it or manipulate it in any way.

The intention was that you should have to spend an action on it to make the power balanced. Thats how I got into the On Hold stuff, and really I can see how the On Hold stuff is kinda getting messy and complicated and I'm just tacking more rules onto it instead of fixing the problem.

Thanks for the input guys again. Seriously thats why I post these ideas here. If it can't withstand the crucible it should never hit the table.

So I'm gonna go give this some more thoughts and come back with a third attempt.
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