Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[The Vulture]

I've been running an espionage campaign for a little while now, and it's been going swimmingly. A friend of mine has expressed interest in joining the group. Her character concept was what she terms "the guy in the van", someone whose role is purely one of support.

As she sees it, the character would keep seperate from the main action, providing information, advice, and relaying orders. I view her character as also assisting skill rolls and occasionally needing protection. For you 24 fans, think something like Chloe O'Brien.

While I think it's a new and different idea, I do want everyone to have a good time and feel included. I have a feeling that, through no intent of me or the party, her character might become more and more pushed to the sideline by the characters out having gunfights while she drinks coffee in an office. I'm toying with the idea of asking her to make a more active character (understand that I ultimately leave the choice to her) and delegating the suport role to an NPC.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this matter?
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Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

[SlasherEpoch]

Well, I've talked to you offline about this, but I will still say something to get the ball rolling:

I guarantee she'll feel sidelined when she's not directly involved. She can still be an electronics, surveillance, or computer expert, but there's plenty of things to do with those skills in the field.
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Proud Savagepedia contributor.

Evil Wig Enterprises Minion #15 - "The
Machete"

[Quibbles quaint]

I agree that it is quite likely to make one feel left out if you do not give them the spot light occasionally, but that is more a matter of making sure that you do so. The problem come in the fact that you would basically have to cut away from the action to that character doing what she does which means the rest of the table is just twiddling their thumbs while she has her fun and she is doing the same while everyone else has theirs.

I tend to prefer the support characters, but I also either understand that I am not going to be getting the spot light as much as others, or build something in that gives me a chance to be part of the action. For instance in many shadowrun games I play a technician and take on a role very similar to "Q" from the bond books. I have on many occasions accepted that I was not going to be getting the spotlight while the actual mission was happening. Other times I worked the character to also be the wheel man and be running the robots that kept an eye out for guards that might sneak up on them or incoming police. This kept me close to the action and gave the ability to make quick transitions between me and them during the game and meant I was doing something interesting as opposed to just taking inventory back at my workshop.

The same idea might work with your person. If she is constantly in contact with them they could still be holding conversations or as things pop up she could be working her mojo to help out. This keeps her in the action without violating the idea. I mean how great would it be to have someone whispering in your ear everything you need to know to con the person you are talking to including all those traps that suspicious people build into their conversations like mentioning people that do not exist in a way that makes you think you should know them or mentioning people you should know and gauging your reaction. Or even something as simple as coordinating all the members of a multipronged attack to a problem.

This is just my two cents and I might be off on what I think she is after, but it seems to me she could be involved if I understand her goal correctly. Otherwise she might just have to get used to the idea that there are going to be times when she is just out of the action and the same would be true of the others. There will be times when they are basically having to sit and wait while she does her thing so that they know what to do next.

You might want to point out to her to watch something that involves her character type and ask her to pay special attention to how much screen time that character gets. If it is a problem for her then she might figure it out then. That is basically what my group did to me and I accepted or adapted depending on how I felt at the time.

Also, keep in mind, if she starts with the character and does not like how little face time it gets, she can always simply hand it over as an NPC which you would now have a whole bunch of information on that you did not have to make yourself. The only problem there is if that is the only kind of character she wants. If she is not going to be happy with anything else and wants more face time that could definitely lead to problems.

Sorry for the rambling post. I just wanted to give the best two cents I could.
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[shadd4d]

This makes me think about the old rigger characters from Shadowrun or deckers running overwatch for a runner team...there still had to be some way for them to interact with the team. Maybe this character has specialized robots for support...depending on the setting.

I think that being left out of the conclusion or the "action" of things would be a let down, although part of the game could see a few sessions in which her support/behind friendly lines character matures into a more hands-on going on the mission with the rest of the group character who fulfills technical support role or as a technology expert for the group.

Take a look at the character of Microchip in the old Punisher series...all he did was research, fix up Frank's weapons and occasional medical attention to Frank. He didn't run around providing fire support or such to the Punisher; he just watched by camera as the Punisher mowed down scumbags...it's a parallel for this player that they really need to consider.

Don
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Don

"But there is a difference between fear and horror. An important difference.
Fear is when you worry about what might be.
Horror is when you are certain." Dannyboy01

[TheLoremaster]

Quick half-formed thought: what about modifying some of the Leadership Edges to work at range? Natural Leader might be a good template to base it from: allow it to work at Range and on Wild Cards, but only with uninterrupted communication. Maybe an Edge that grants bonuses to Notice rolls (tapping into security cameras/public records), Common Knowledge ("Here, let me Google that for you ..."), etc.

Also, per the recent discussion on hacking, remember that many computer systems are physically isolated, and you need to get the smart guy to the computer instead of the other way around. That will keep her character in the thick of things ... when she's not likely to have much combat experience.
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"Your GM is metagaming ... and wrong!"

[Count Zero]

I don't know what kind of tech exists in your game world, but its conceivable that the tech/support character these days can carry their kit with them and work their voodoo anywhere they need. Give em a few bumps in Shooting and some body armor and the character should be able to roll with the rest of the crew.
Their is no real reason to have a support character not with the group if they don't want to be.

To echo what Loremaster mentioned about ranged Leadership abilities: I always allow them to be used over headsets when there is no LOS. It happens in the best movies and that's good enough for me.
I don't know that I'd require an Edge for someone to Google something from their Blackberry, though. I see complete idiots do that all day long.
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I'm not an adversarial GM. I am a facilitator of awesomeness. - Dr Rotwang

[TheLoremaster]

[Adam Baulderstone]

Here's a couple of thoughts on having her act in a support role:

The Luck and Common Bond Edges come immediately to mind, letting her act as a Benny Faerie.

Have the other PC's wearing minicams that allow her to make Notice checks.

This next idea requires a little more GM prep, but could pay off. Make index cards with the results of likely Notice, Investigate and Knowledge checks on them. That way rather than stealing her thunder by telling her what she learns with her rolls, you can hand her the card so she can tell the group directly.

[Jordan Peacock]

Hey, depending on the tech level, you could maybe let the "guy in the van" have an on-site avatar of a sort: a remote? That is, the guy in the van is really back at base, but on site, some sort of little roverbot. (So, at the very least, the PC can make his/her own Notice checks, and maybe do simple manipulation of objects, and MAYBE be useful in a fight on rare occasion by pulling Tricks and diversions, etc.)

I'm not sure what stats would be appropriate, however, or how much such a thing should cost (equipment-wise, as an Edge, etc.). Just a brainstorm idea.
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[The Vulture]

These are some pretty good thoughts. I might try some of these.

Keep 'em coming!
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Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room!

[irishvince]

[Sadric]

[Zombi Bobb]

I play this role quite often. "The guy in the van" does take a backseat to the face man and point man and whoever else gets out of the van. But they also fill several goals which are very important and help the GM out of jams.
They can do the computer work - you have your infiltrator get inside and do what TGITV tell them to or even better, have them hook up some thing that lets the cracker do their thing remotely. IMO, this has the added benefit of looking more sophisticated then sneaking another guy in and speaking of which, you don't have to sneak another guy in. TGITV also plays the key role of lookout for when the cops or whoever shows up. TGITV is the wheelman for those fast getaways. And lastly, (this is the thing I find useful in GMing) they are the cavalry when the operation goes FUBAR. I find this to be a useful GM tool in that you can be a bit more ruthless with your primary infiltrators. That way, when they drop the ball, the others have to bail them out.

Overall, I like this role a lot. But going in I know it's a backseat position and that it will be up to me to play an active part, thinking of things I can do myself and not relying on the GM to feed me tasks. If your player knows this and works this way, you probably don't have to do too much planning at all. She will likely make herself vital to operations. (And while you don't get as much face time, the time you do get ends up being proportionally better quality)

[irishvince]

And don't forget that, if they are in Radio contact, The character can give those Out of Character and In character advises, that are out of place in other games. So basically while the character is not there physically, she will be able to talk.

Just be careful because she might think that by taking her character out of the action she will be safe. It might just be a cope out because she afraid her character could die.

But all in all my final advise would to watch a lot of 24, just to get a feel of this kind of characters sine there's a couple on the show.
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The Savage tales of Ptolus

[Sitting Duck]

I would also suggest checking out the movie Sneakers.
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Evil Wig Enterprises Minion #10 - The Fink

[Karnaze]

The guy in the van...isn't that the one that's never there when the rest of the group gets back?

There are a lot of ways this could be used by the GM. As mentioned above, in modern/future type games, those sitting still in an observation post can be very vulnerable. They are usually focused on what's happening somewhere else and many times cannot even see what's going on outside their post, concealment works both ways.

They can also be last ditch reinforcements if things go bad or show up with bandaids if things go worse. Overall though, I think after a few games she might start to feel bored. Once the rest of the group has a good combat with lots of exploding dice, huge numbers of dead foes, lots of neat loot, and she doesn't get to experience any of it.

There might also be some resentment from the rest of the group. If there is a TPK or even if only a couple of characters are killed, they may resent losing a character they've put a lot of effort into while her character advances along with the rest of group, but is never really in danger.

[Nys]

This might spark some more ideas: reverse your line of a thinking and consider her the main character and the infiltrators as her support. What does her support do in an espionage campaign?

The primary way for TGITV to interact with a scene is through devices that are deployed by the infiltration team. If TGITV says they want a spy camera to be deployed where the team is at, simply allow it (unless all of them have already been deployed). Make this a free action for the infiltrators unless they need to use a Skill (ex: Climb) to reach the place for it to be deployed. TGITV is responsible for figuring out what remote devices the team brings with on a mission. Think of this as a wizard selecting what spells they want readied.

Give the remote devices diverse effects. Devices might allow TGITV to choose between causing a fire or an explosion (explosions get attention quickly but are quickly resolved, a fire might go unnoticed for a while but require extended attention to put out). Others might be a choice between a smoke screen to provide a tactical advantage or a flashbang to put baddies out of commission. True, an infiltrator might have grenade versions of these, but TGITV is responsible for using surveillance devices to time the best usage of the remote devices.

Have devices that give bonuses to skills like Notice. Allow precision heartbeat monitors and heat sensors for the "guy in the van" to monitor to see if that guard is telling the truth.

Map skills to remote devices. For example, allow a rig that has a camera and levers that attach to the flight stick and pedals of an airplane, and suddenly the door opens for TGITV to use their Piloting skill on a mission.

Definitely tie TGITV to the same scene that the rest are the players are involved in. TGITV should be in constant communication except for the occasional twist. Allow TGITV to speak on an infiltrator's behalf by feeding them exactly what to say, unlocking the use of their Persuasion, Taunt and Intimidate skills. Maybe TGITV skips the middleman and Taunts on the communication channels that the bad guys are using.

TGITV should see scenes on a strategic level and taking actions that complement the tactical actions being taken by teammates. If a firefight breaks out, TGITV should be busy containing the situation. Using the remote devices to distract or kill the bad guys, give allies a tactical advantage, lock out or divert the bad guy reinforcements, unlocking a getaway route for allies, and shutting down the alarms should all be on the to-do list. Emphasize this by always including TGITV when dealing initiative.

As for the TPK issue.. If the guy in the van is the only one left alive, it is only fair for that character to be forced to "retire." Maybe TGITV was captured and killed, or a double agent, or went insane. Perhaps they were simply fired from the agency for failing their team. All the more reason for the character to be invested in what is happening to the others.

[SlasherEpoch]

These are all interesting ideas, but I still don't think it could be maintained for an entire game. Also, I know robots is advancing steadily, but is it really fair or realistic to have one person represented by a remote controlled robot?

I just think the player will find it extremely limiting. I'm not one to shut down a character concept, but she should be aware of the limitations that this position brings.
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Proud Savagepedia contributor.

Evil Wig Enterprises Minion #15 - "The
Machete"

[Adam Baulderstone]

[DanOrc]

So, also for inspirations, take Morpheus from the Matrix. "The office across from you is empty. Stay low. Go now."

Basically, what I mean by this, is take the power level up a notch. Have her be the all-seeing eye, giving total situational awareness for the NPCs. The leadership edges are also a good idea.

I did this as a player with a super-high-tech supercomputer on one raid, though I was normally a combat character, I had for some reason I forget been stranded at HQ in a sci-fi campaign. The AI had strictly passive access to every camera (and, being sci-fi, many data sensory recorders).

As the city's police responded, I could direct routes for the van right into the HUD of the car for a vehicular portions as well as avoiding the police. Perhaps the coolest moment was when two members on foot had to procure a vehicle, and I was able to lookup the name of the driver of the limo on standby, allowing another PC to Persuade his way into commandeering the ride, which was intended for a main bad guy instead. The driver was so snookered he even passed back a pistol to the PC, which turned out to be a fatal mistake.

It turned out to be a complete blast.

Espionage can be pretty high-tech too. If every member has a passive camera in their equipment, you can have all of them on a wall of monitors, with a larger tactical map assembled. Give the Support PC support NPCs... I'd in particular recommend a combat tactician to give her advice, and an NPC hacker if there isn't one in the party already. Her challenges could involve assembling the information, or taking the raw data the PCs and the programmer giving you and turning into useful information, those shiny 3d renderings, video reconstructions, etc.

I also completely agree with accountability... she has this hardass boss herself, or is on her last straw, and she will be fired or worse if there's a TPK or even a suitably awful showing or partial party kill. Like in a real life supervisory situation, there's far more accountability than at a foot level thing. And, yes, enemies often assault secret HQs and/or "the van."

In fact, in the genre, being in the van is kind of the equivalent of being the first woman to take her shirt off in a slasher flick.

In any case, I'd let her give it a shot. If it sucks.... she can make something else easy enough.
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