Great White Games/Pinnacle Entertainment Group

[Red Mercy]

I design dungeons. I like designing dungeons. And filling them with puzzles, traps, and monsters for my players to contend with. But something that's been bothering me is just where does the line between realism and practicality lie? An example of this is the latest dungeon I've been working on. It's a wizard's tower, which I figured would be fun for players since I can stock it with all sorts of weird things for them to interact with. So I got to thinking what sorts of things a wizard would need, ensconced in his sanctum like that. Obviously he'd need things to meet his basic needs, like a place to sleep, eat, etc. Thinking about this led me to thoughts about the mechanics of it. For instance, where does he get his food shipments? Does he have a cleaning closet? And, of course -- see subject line. I've sort of skirted around such issues in the past, figuring no one really cared about the subtle fact that there never seemed to be anywhere for the snakemen to sleep in their hideouts, but I wonder if I should be putting things like this in. How do you all handle this issue?

[shadd4d]

This is where the logic of the dungeon crawl tends to fall apart; I mean is there some type o wacky "Odd Couple" skit involving an ogre and a gelatinous cube?

I'd take a page from Shadowrun 4th's Wireless supplement: "Systems (read dungeons) do not exist for the players to hack (crawl through)."

Maybe now is a good time to bring back the realism of a dungeon.

Don
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Don

"But there is a difference between fear and horror. An important difference.
Fear is when you worry about what might be.
Horror is when you are certain." Dannyboy01

[Enno]

"Dungeons" don't exist. Every building has or had - in the case of ruins - it's purpose. The classic wizards tower has to be designed like any architect would do; with a rooms to live and to work in.

In the case of a ruin think first about it's original purpose, second about it's present one.

"Dungeons" and spelunking them is great once or twice in a while. But they are even more fun, if they are more or less realistic, and not a bunch of random monsters, traps and treasures to grab.
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There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who know binary and those who don't.

[Cutter XXIII]

In some old TSR supplement (maybe Ed Greenwood's Undermountain, I'm not sure), a wizard's privy was a seat above a shaft that dropped down to a small portal/gate. All the privies deposited their...uh...cargo into a central compost chamber somewhere below. And that's where the otyugh lives!

Speaking of D&D, pp. 218-220 of the 1st. ed. Dungeon Master's Guide are perfect for determining this sort of thing.
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Matthew Cutter
Deadlands Big Bug (Brand Manager)
Pinnacle Entertainment Group, Inc.

[HaraldKlak]

I think realism is very important to make dungeons entertaining. The details give you the feel that this isn't just another set of hallways and rooms containing monsters and treasure. It is somehow easier to imagine the disgust in a goblin lavatory where crap is covering floor, than some mystical (and hard-to-explain) presence in the unholy tempel which emits an eerie feeling.
Especially since you are making a wizards tower i think there is a lot of opportunities to combine the ordinary rooms with strange traps, puzzles and maces. Why would he make rooms only to trap potential guests, when he instead could device his living room to hold a lot of traps for the intruders. Animated rooms or spirit could easily be a part of his every day recreational facilities. Or the bathroom could easily also contain the secret door to his hidden study and the intricate puzzle to open it (perhaps a combination of bath tub and teleportation tube).

Furthermore I think that many ordinaryr rooms provides excellet scenes for combat. Kitchens, libraries and the likes all provides a lot of opportunities for obstacles and improvised combat (which in my oppinion should be highly encouraged to make battles entertaining).
Another consideration I think you should make is the size of rooms. A lot of the dungeons I have encountered tend to be huge. Every room including vast spaces to move around on. This isn't very realistic. Most real world rooms isn't large enough for 10 people running around and charging one another, so why should the ones in the dungeons? I think there making rooms smaller is a great way to force the player to take the surroundings into consideration. Of course every battle shouldn't be a matter of cramming yourselves into tight spaces, but some of them might, which give opportunities for varied action.

[quixol]

First off what a great topic. I always loved the idea of dungeon ecology and a well thought out building layout.

First off I believe the comment above concerning that most often you are designing a ruin is correct, but with one slight difference. At one time the dungeon was designed for a purpose. Having decided on the purpose of your building you need to include various layouts in a logical fashion. So if a inside privy is needed, it should be included. Over time however, what was previously an obvious room designs becomes obscured.

There are also changes that occur over the years because of events that occurred. i.e. A war happened and a once useful playroom now becomes a storage room for weapons. Another room is walled up for a cache to later be reclaimed.

On a second note, I always try to insure the area of a dungeon makes sense with the other denizens. What do they eat? How does their food get replenished. Does their territory overlap with other aggresive denizens.

My last and final comment is that I like to have an idea for a larger dungeon as to how far a group may call their territory. Thus if a noise is heard in their territory, some of the denizens will come to check things out. Also they are not always in their primary dens, so I offer a % chance for them to be out of their rooms and return in x # of hours.

So for your original question, it is up to you to decide how long the building has been in continous use. What has occurred to the building over time. Or simply to decide that so much time has passed that all things are a mystery and only make sense as part of an adventure.

Privys are outside building most often and tend to fall apart.
That is my thoughts for comments and have served me well for the past 30+ years of gaming. Hope it helps.

[DerFinsterling]

Plus, Earthdawn was the only setting I know that actually gave a reason for dungeons dotting the ladnscape and them being filled with monsters and treasures.
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Markus
The Sundered Skies Serial - full of spoilers!
Savagepedia at wikispaces

[screenmonkey]

There was a great paperback book published in the 80's that would allow you to randomly generate a dungeon. The success of doing it randomly was iffy, but the number of ideas presented on realistic ecologies and believable reasons why someone would go to such extraordinary lengths to build a "dungeon" were phenomenal. It included extensive lists of the types of rooms that a given structure should have in it.

When building dungeons, always go with "realistic" and consider how the structure is used on a day to day basis.

Man, I wish I could remember the name of that book, I gave it to a friend and haven't seen it since.

[Adam Baulderstone]

The first issue of Dragon I ever bought (#45) had an article on ventilation systems for dungeons that was a big influence on my childhood dungeon designs. I was always careful to show the layout of airducts throughout the dungeon. This of, course, created cramped, alternate routes through the dungeon for smaller adventurers as well as giving the potential for flanking attacks on the party by goblins

It also suggested having a pumphouse to circulate the air, powered either by magic or slaves. The pumphouse could be a strategic point to sabotage to render the whole dungeon uninhabitable. Intake vents could also be located and plugged to flush out those dwelling inside.

[marshal kt]

it al really depends on what technology period you're working in.

if you're creating a fantasy, a la lord of the rings, which most D&D and the like have copied, then you're looking at medieval europe.

they had the chamber pot, a large bowl or pot to use in the 'chamber'.

watch rob roy. they have the main villian, using one. he urinates in it and then passes it to his servant; who dumped it out the window.

thats how it was in all europe. if you lived in a house, in town, you dumped it out the window. if you lived in the rural areas, you did the same, but had a bit more room to go and deposit/dump it.


animals and livestock pens had to be mucked out. the waste was shoveled out. the human waste was left with it.

in asia, nortably japan, they had an entire caste who 'handled' it. they were the eta, the untouchables. the were not even accnoledged as exsisting. they handled the waste, and brought it to the tanners, who used some of it to tan animal hides.

the out-house wasn't created until the 1800's...

you want realism? make it solid gold.. which wasn't unual. [now they have solid gold fictures in mansions and extravagent hotels, same thing.]
or maybe the skull of an arch-rival.
hmm you cold even make an entire adventure to retrieve the skull of..someone [king, high cleric, et c.] and the villain has made it his chamber pot.
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"I'm Hotep"

[jamused]

I'd say it's all in service of Fun. If not having all the proper amenities will bug your players, then by all means spend some time to figure that stuff out. If you know that they'll never notice, you might still spend the effort if you care and it will help you feel the setting is more solid and realistic feeling when you run it. Otherwise, eh.

[Red Mercy]

Wow, great advice, everyone. Thanks!

[Sadric]

[joshuaslater]

Well Bubba Ho-Tep used the men's room down the hall from Elvis, so that'd be my answer.

[marshal kt]

yeah.. but that was in a nursing home.
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"I'm Hotep"

[VonDan]

In some medieval castles ware the upper reaches of the wall overhand the lower half they would install a commode and the hole beneath the seat let the waste fall outside the wall and into the moat.

So I read of one battle ware a besieging archer noticed some offal falling out of one of the towers so he moved to ware he could shoot up the hole.

Inside the castle they called the chapel priest who spent 2 hours removing an arrow from a man’s “fleshy parts” as he doth protest most vigorously.

Put that in a game

[rajl]

Bathrooms are a 20th Century invention. Until you had indoor plumbing, you couldn't have a bathroom. If you've ever visited castles in medieval Europe, you'll notice there are no bathrooms. Versailles is a wonderful example of this -- not a single bathroom in the whole place because they used the stairwells. Most castles, people just went in the courtyard, over the battlements, or into a chamberpot which was dumped out of a window. It was the same everywhere, which is one reason why epidemics and disease were rampant in cities -- no public sewer systems.

Other bits of pre-20th century realism:

-- Kitchens are always separate buildings separated by long distances from the main dwelling. This was kitchens were a fire hazard and if a kitchen fire happened, it wouldn't burn the entire house down.

-- No closets. Architecturally, closets didn't come into being until the 20th Century. Before that, they were considered "dead space." Instead, people hung their clothes in pieces of furniture known as wardrobes.

-- Fireplaces and stoves were the main source of heating in winter until the invention of radiators and then central heating and air. Every room would have either a coal or wood burning stove, or a fireplace.

Of course, all of these "problems" in a wizards tower could be explained away by "magic." Hell, if I was a wizard, I'd magically heat the place to a perfect, toasty 72 F in the dead cold of winter, and have a kitchen use magical fire to heat my food but not burn down.

[VonDan]

They never show it but the rich had a sort of toilet in medieval times, Like a modern commode chair in a hospital. It was a chair with a hole in the seat that the chamber pot sat under, some were fancy almost like a throne and under the seat was boxed in so the servant had to change the pit from a little door in the back.

Potty on Dude

[Wendigo1870]

[VonDan]